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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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A 12 sport climber probably takes more, longer and scarier falls in an afternoon than a typical tradhead takes in a year - or perhaps even a lifetime.
I think the distinction between sport climber and "trad head" is in your head. Most of us do both. Though I do a lot more sport climbing now than trad, the idea that sport falls are "scarier" than trad falls makes me wonder where you ever got such information. I don't even think of sport falls as falls, just misteps.
JL
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Nice Don! thanks. Best climbing video I've seen in a long time,
Steve Seats
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Yeah John, the dude most have found some of the drugs that we didn't get to when he made that statement.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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That's a sport climbing video...and 11+ is kind of a warmup in most Euro areas.
Falls - sport v trad. Depends on how the area is bolted. In Bocan, it seems rare to climb beyond the last bolt at your ankle. In Rifle, to provide some actual examples, on extremely popular middle of the pack 12-'s such as Easy Skankin', Pinchfest and Cardinal Sin, you will see dozens of 10-20+ foot falls on any given afternoon. In Eldo, you may see a fall of that magnitude on a trad route once a month or less. Most trad falls aren't falls at all - it's more like downclimb and take, if that - usually just a transition to aid climbing with no fall at all. Even an actual fall is usually with gear not below the ankle. If you disagree, please list some routes where these big falls are nearly as commonplace.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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The Quarryman’s four pitches range from 6b (5.10+) to 8a (5.13b). The crux pitch, referred to as “the groove,” is the most recognizable feature of the climb, an extended flared chimney. The lack of good feet and the necessary utilization of creativity have led the 8a rating to be considered a sandbag.
That "chimney" pitch is 8a.
This video might make Largo's point about people doing both...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Stunning climbing and don't miss the huge whipper outtake.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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^^^I like the cool Totem Cams^^^^^^
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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tarek,
Nice video.
JLP, take a look at that video.
This guy sums up a significant diff.... He is constantly refering to "if the gear holds... if the rock holds..." Lets face it, we don't have too many bolts pulling out or biners breaking in bolt hangers (Save me the whining of rare examples, because placed gear pulls and f's up too often to compare to bolt/biner failure). This concern is a contributing factor to why you see fewer TRAD "whippers" than you see on sport climbs.
SIDE NOTE: steep over hanging pockets, I know it's all the rage, but I still just don't feel it.
I respect it, just don't feel it.
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raymond phule
climber
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A 12 sport climber probably takes more, longer and scarier falls in an afternoon than a typical tradhead takes in a year - or perhaps even a lifetime.
Make sense to me. How often do trad climbers actually fall?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Never. the leader must not fall!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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That's a super rehearsed headpoint lead on gear of a bolted sport route - and a rare event at that. Are you posting that in support of my points or JL's? Anyone can find dozens of similar videos on youtube.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I do not like the distinction between trad and sport anymore. I hate my screen name. I prefer to be just a climber. It seems these days the climbers I trust the least are the ones who prowdly declare that they are TRAD climbers and get all bent out of shape every time they see a bolt. Small minded wankers INMOP. Spurt climbers and pad people are pretty amuseing as well. They think they are so special because they climb big numbers but they miss out on so many great climbs simply because they do not want to take the time to learn how to use the gear.
The real climbers are simply climbers. Just as happy on a steep bolted line as they are on a long run out slab or a splitter crack. Even better are the climbers who can crank Grade 6 pillars and hard mixed ice, cruise the alpine, aid the big walls, climb the big trad routes and pull hard on steep bolts.. The pebble pinchers are just training to be climbers:)
Uli Steck is a real climber. Cranks 5.14 Spurt and can solo the North Face of the Eiger.. How can you go wrong with that skill set!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2012 - 10:46am PT
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If you disagree, please list some routes where these big falls are nearly as commonplace.
You're confusing the issue here. The point I tickled out of your post was concerning the seriousness of trad versus sport falls, not the frequency. I fell more during my first year of sport climbing than during my entire trad career. But I always found a 20 foot airball ripper onto a half inch bolt a much tamer proposition than heading up on Black Primo, say, which is only 5.12a but a few pitches have only a few points of good pro.
JL
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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John, seems like you are talking about poorly protected routes more than gear vs bolts.. heck there is a climb @ Rumny that I won't do because it is a weird move that gets you all banged up if you blow it. there is a bit of that going on in the ice world. there are folks who have no problem on bolt protected WI6 or bolt protected M7 yet can't lead a lot of the big 5+ ice routes because the gear is so sketchy. Those big 5+ climbs get tons of traffick though because there are a lot of well rounded strong ice climbers these days.. Speaking strictly rock it seems that you are makeing the distinction between folks who climb dangerous routes and safe routs. I totally agree. There are very few climbers getting on truely dangerous poorly protected hard climbs these days. There are tons of folks climbing well protected hard climbs be it bolts or gear.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ron, you are an Idiot if you think a real 40footer on to a #3 RP is fun or something to aspire to.....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Any climbing route is dangerous. The bumblys who have gear rip and deck on a G rated trad climb are just as capeable of killing themselfs on a spurt climb. In our sport rock climbs that are rated R or X are considered dangerous regardless of if they are bolt or gear protected.. Often wide cracks and slab foreget to mention the danger rateing yet most climbers know the drill and expect enhanced danger on those pitches.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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And they are the same bumblys who lower off the end of their ropes spurt climbing..
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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I started clumbering in the 70s. For one brief shimmering moment I was what JL described - a 5.11 climber competent on all ground and at a high level of difficulty and commitment. And I will tell you it is a different world. There is absolutely no viable comparison between A big number sport climb with pre-hung draws on a radically overhanging 30 meter face and being 2000' feet up and 80 feet away from the last good pro you placed. One endeavor is a gymnastic exercise of extreme difficulty and minimum risk and the other is mental exercise of extreme difficulty and maximum risk.
In all my years of climbing I have taken less than two dozen real leader falls. However what I lacked in quantity I certainly made up for with spectacular quality. including a 50 foot grounder on to my head. But I don't like to fall. For me falling = failing.
The sport that captured my passion was called climbing not falling. I always climbed in a way so as to be in control enough to not fall. Thus in all the years in the Black Canyon I have only fallen twice. Both lead falls both due to ripped hooks. By the way the hooks were for free climbing pro and failled when tested taking me with them. They were not pleasant experiences. And to be sure there were innumerable situations where falling would have been a certain death.
Conversely I took a lead fall just a few days ago on a sport climb. My first ever fall on to a bolt. Pffff, Meh and whoopty Doo. Yes the moves can be awesomely difficult, a numerical wonder but come on really the commitment is approaching zero. So it is ridiculous to equate quantity of falls on sport routes with quality of seriousness.
Climbing for me has always been about exploration and discovery both personal and situational.
It has been about taking on the medium of ascent in as fair a means as possible - meeting the mountain on It's terms if you will. Modern drilled, pre-hung and rehearsed to death "big numbers" climbs, while stunning from a physical capacity perspective, are akin to hunting buffalo in a paddock.
I would bet you could turn a really good gymnast into a really bad ass sport climber far easier than turning a really good sport climber into a bad ass trad climber. A 5.11 all arounder, competent on all types of rock, snow and ice is a far rarer cat than a 5.13 sport climber.
And a far greater accomplishment as well.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Philo. Most of those all arounders that you talk of sport climb and do not have a problem with the bolts. They just climb.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Tradman, I didn't say they didn't. I even sport climb these days because it is just climbing. And I am a whimp.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Annother repuglican with a titanium Sack... just what the world needs..........
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