Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
|
John, there is NO evidence that the cost for employers in providing healthcare will rise, only that if an employer that doesn't want to provide healthcare is required to, that's obviously a greater cost. With 50 million more people getting insurance and few uninsured people whose costs need to be absorbed by the system, the likelihood is that costs go down
Peace
Karl
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
|
The really sad part of this health care discussion is that the republicans are whining about cost to provide affordable health care to all US citizens and not a beep out of them about the trillions spend on Iraq. I find them disgusting.
|
|
juar
Sport climber
socal
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
|
ah the conservatives
contenting all the aspect of the bill
their own representatives fought tooth and nail to have included
|
|
juar
Sport climber
socal
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
|
if that were true
we would be an the end of a line of angry defense contractors
havnt seent it yet
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
|
Single Payer
Single Payer
Single Payer
Single Payer
Public Option
Public Option
Public Option
Public Option
The premise of employer-provided health insurance is retarded.
Single Payer
Single Payer
Single Payer
Single Payer
Public Option
Public Option
Public Option
Public Option
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
|
John, there is NO evidence that the cost for employers in providing healthcare will rise, only that if an employer that doesn't want to provide healthcare is required to, that's obviously a greater cost. With 50 million more people getting insurance and few uninsured people whose costs need to be absorbed by the system, the likelihood is that costs go down.
We simply don't know at this point. If costs do go up, they will probably go up less that they would have without the ACA. We can look to Switzerland and Netherlands for clues (they also have mandates to purchase insurance) but these are imperfect comparisons for several reasons.
http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Faculty/Jost%20The%20Experience%20of%20Switzerland%20and%20the%20Netherlands.pdf
Curt
|
|
juar
Sport climber
socal
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
|
pretty wild how these representatives can stand up and tell us there is no support for medicare for all
while the polls show that over 80 percent of the public favor it
wonder whos support these representatives are actually relying on?
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
|
Ye ole Weepy Pumpkin and Nancy SMASH...a picture really is worth a thousand words:
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
|
Dave:
You hit the nail on the head. Until we separate health care from employment, we have a system that is clearly suboptimal. Even single payer would accomplish that, though I would debate whether European health care models translate well into the US.
In any case, right now we have the worst of both worlds. At the very least, we should have the same tax treatment for health care expenses, regardless of who funds them.
John
|
|
Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
|
Kris: Too bad we're given such a poor choice at such an important time.
On that, we are in total agreement.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
|
Karl:
There is ample empirical evidence that health care premiums for existing coverage already have risen. The people I know in the insurance industry uniformly say the major component in the rise are ACA provisions, but I don't think that is sufficient to convince doubters, who can always respond that this observation is merely a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
The cause may be debatable, but the rising rates are fact.
John
|
|
juar
Sport climber
socal
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
|
we can wholeheartedly thank one side of the isle for insisting on the poor choice
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
|
Until we separate health care from employment
Indeed. It all really comes down to whether you believe preserving the private insurance industry (and its inherently more expensive structure due to the need for profits..this isn't a matter of debate, Medicare has a extremely low overhead) is preferable to single payer.
You want a democractic process where you can shape the program via your congressional reps (single payer) or do you want the "market" to determine it. So far, the "market" has provided a race to the bottom and schemed up every conceiveable way to gladly take your premiums and then refuse to actually cover you when needed. Customer satisfaction with medicare, by contrast, is high. My preference is clear, I have ZERO trust in coporate america, whether banks, insurance industry, pharma, oil or any others. They have pissed away any measure of respect and trust they ever had in their gluttonous lust for the almighty $$$$$$.
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
|
"Until we separate health care from employment, we have a system that is clearly suboptimal. Even single payer would accomplish that, though I would debate whether European health care models translate well into the US."
Dammit, John...for the life of me, I don't remember you making comments like that when the HR debate was in full force. I remember comments more along the lines of tort reform, and several other Republican talking points of the time.
Now you come out in favor of single-payer???? Pffft.
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
|
I'm not happy at all with this law...it possesses all kinds of shortcomings and loopholes that are unlikely to solve the myriad problems that are plaguing us all.
Still, I applaud Obama for trying, even if I don't agree with the process he used, or the results he attained. There is no way on this green earth that ANY Repug would have taken on this issue in any meaningful, genuine manner.
What's really a pisser is that that the shortcomings that are sure to become evident quite soon will be magnified and hyperbolized by a Repug media machine that has never offered any other alternative, and when an effort was made to change it, didn't do anything but try to sabotage it at every turn.
I'm sure how to regard them as anything but whining losers.
|
|
juar
Sport climber
socal
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
|
mabe if we cut into that mountain of paper work behind the admitting desk
might free up someone in the office to get about dealing with the line out the door
|
|
nature
climber
SoSlo, CO
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
|
That money is gone, stop living in the past. Nothing that Obama, Romney, you or I can do about it. Try something that can be changed or improved.
Sure there is. We can prevent the same f*#ktards that blew that wad from getting another chance.
|
|
ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
|
I'm not happy at all with this law...it possesses all kinds of shortcomings and loopholes that are unlikely to solve the problems that are plaguing us all.
Still, I applaud Obama for trying...
and
...There is no way on this green earth that ANY Repug would have taken on this issue in any meaningful, genuine manner.
What's really a pisser is that that the shortcomings that are sure to become evident quite soon will be magnified and hyperbolized by a Repug media machine that has never offered any other alternative, and when an effort was made to change it, didn't do anything but try to sabotage it at every turn.
100% agree.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
|
Dave, I would agree with you IF the private market players couldn't just buy off the congress to kill any effective regulation. I don't believe we can achieve the "well regulated" part of your suggestion. Get rid of those private market profiteers and you have a congress that is responsive to the people, rather than a corporation that pads their campaign coffers.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
|
Nature writes:
"Sure there is. We can prevent the same f*#ktards that blew that wad from getting another chance."
I take it you'll be voting third-party this year?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!