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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Mar 29, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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Kid should have told Zimmerman, "go ahead call the LEO"
Kid should have gotten of the phone with gf and called 911 himself.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Mar 29, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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A 140 pound 6'2" kid
You sure about that weight?
Do you know anyone of that height / weight?
I see skinny, strong climbers all the time, but I don't think I've seen anone that tall, that light. Not saying it's impossible, but that sounds fishy . . .
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 29, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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blahblah: You sure about that weight?
Do you know anyone of that height / weight?
I see skinny, strong climbers all the time, but I don't think I've seen anone that tall, that light. Not saying it's impossible, but that sounds fishy . . .
Police have not moved from their official statement of the shooting. But as the controversy grows, so does the number of voices disputing the official version that watch captain George Zimmerman gave to police: that the six-foot, three-inch, 140-pound teen assaulted him when Zimmerman, 28, tried to question him. In fear for his life, he pulled Kel Tek 9mm handgun from his waistband and shot.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/v-fullstory/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 29, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
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"Ah, I'm finally getting it... so, because he looked like an adult black man, that made Tayvon a threat duly subject to gunfire. Sounds reasonable"
unhinged; you know i was responding to the claims that zimmerman killed "a child", which, you know, implies zimmerman knew he was only 17
unhinged; you, again, claim zimmerman shot him because he was black, or, specifically, because "he looked...black"; you have no PROOF that this was a racially motivated crime (or a crime, at all) and, of course, ignore my repeated reminders that zimmerman has BLACK friends defending him (one who remains anonymous because he fears for his safety--oh, brave new world that a man fears for his safety if he speaks up for his friend)
"Because Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight!"
unhinged; again, you imply that zimmerman was "stalking" martin or was looking for somebody to "fight" or, since he was carrying his gun, somebody to kill
"All of which wouldn't have apologists now look like such scum bags for trying to justify why it's perfectly okay an unarmed youth is dead for no good reason."
unhinged; NOBODY is claiming it's "perfectly okay" that martin is dead; NOBODY is happy that he's dead; and NOBODY is claiming there's a "good reason" he's dead...we are, in fact, claiming there's a reason he's dead but NOBODY (besides zimmerman) knows what that reason is even though many people are claiming they do know; we're simply claiming there's no way, based on the evidence that has been made public, to know if zimmerman committed murder (1 or 2) or manslaughter or any crime at all; in fact, the evidence released so far indicates that he acted within the law (and that's not a defense of the law); we're simply trying to quell the rage before somebody else gets hurt
"And, before we get into that can of worms, I am pro-gun ownership, just not pro psycho idiot"
unhinged: you have no way of knowing if zimmerman is "psycho"; i agree, he put himself in a bad situation, but that's not a crime; and, yes, i'll take the word of his BLACK friends that zimmerman is a good man and a good citizen over the rantings of sharpton, jackson, farrakhan, spike lee, roseanne barr, doctor f, bruce kay, etc.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 29, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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fact:
none of us know the whole story. only what the news channels has sppon fed us and they tend to spoon feed us the stuff that sells.
some of you guys would have been lynching people early on back in the old west times....
tragic? yes. but face it, if you were attacked and knocked down and afraid for your life and you were carrying, would you shoot to save yourself?
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 29, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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unhinged; you know i was responding to the claims that zimmerman killed "a child", which, you know, implies zimmerman knew he was only 17
He killed a child, whether or not he knew how old the kid was. Age is objective, not subjective.
unhinged; you, again, claim zimmerman shot him because he was black, or, specifically, because "he looked...black"; you have no PROOF that this was a racially motivated crime (or a crime, at all) and, of course, ignore my repeated reminders that zimmerman has BLACK friends defending him (one who remains anonymous because he fears for his safety--oh, brave new world that a man fears for his safety if he speaks up for his friend)
Other than he called the kid a f*#king coon?
"Because Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight!"
unhinged; again, you imply that zimmerman was "stalking" martin or was looking for somebody to "fight" or, since he was carrying his gun, somebody to kill
It was implied that Zimmerman was stalking the kid when Zimmerman left his car to stalk the kid, don't you think?
"All of which wouldn't have apologists now look like such scum bags for trying to justify why it's perfectly okay an unarmed youth is dead for no good reason."
unhinged; NOBODY is claiming it's "perfectly okay" that martin is dead; NOBODY is happy that he's dead; and NOBODY is claiming there's a "good reason" he's dead...we are, in fact, claiming there's a reason he's dead but NOBODY (besides zimmerman) knows what that reason is even though many people are claiming they do know; we're simply claiming there's no way, based on the evidence that has been made public, to know if zimmerman committed murder (1 or 2) or manslaughter or any crime at all; in fact, the evidence released so far indicates that he acted within the law (and that's not a defense of the law); we're simply trying to quell the rage before somebody else gets hurt
All well and good.
"And, before we get into that can of worms, I am pro-gun ownership, just not pro psycho idiot"
unhinged: you have no way of knowing if zimmerman is "psycho"; i agree, he put himself in a bad situation, but that's not a crime; and, yes, i'll take the word of his BLACK friends that zimmerman is a good man and a good citizen over the rantings of sharpton, jackson, farrakhan, spike lee, roseanne barr, doctor f, bruce kay, etc.
Forget the strawmen. Let's look at the best case scenario for Zimmerman. He left his car armed, pursued a kid who was guilty of nothing more than walking home. The kid confronted his stalker, got the best of the situation and got shot.
That's the best case scenario for Zimmerman. Ugly, isn't it?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Mar 29, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
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You can't hit someone if you are afraid for your life? I thought that was the whole point of the Florida law. Don't back down, take it to your adversary.
Lesson: use a gun, not your fists.
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nature
climber
CO
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Mar 29, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
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no kidding monolith. apparently the biggest mistake here was Trayvon not packing and defending himself (under the FL law). Of course then Trayvon would be in custody...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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The way the law is written and has been interpreted by the couts is just crazy legal murder.
Two neighbors argue about trash bag limits on collection day. One shoots the other unarmed man in the chest with a 9mm and walks. FL Stand your ground.
Man goes nuts on basketball court. goes home comes back with gun. shoots and kills the unarmed man who tries to disarm him. FL stand your ground.
Wanna be cop follows and intimidates black kid ( the text messages to his GF confirm he felt threatened) Unarmed kid ends up shot and dead. FL stand your ground.
There are hundreds more of these. About eighty per year since 2006. Guys like Buley and Ron A, Donald etc who keep voiceing support for this law are sick individuals.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Mar 29, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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There is a lot of opportunism going on. There are a lot of people ready to condemn Z without all the facts. I've seen video of rallies with mob mentality that would lynch Z if he was there. That's wrong, and if you are against that fine. But many are defending Z by attacking Martin. Or justifying what is known that Z did which led to the confrontation.
Forget the strawmen. Let's look at the best case scenario for Zimmerman. He left his car armed, pursued a kid who was guilty of nothing more than walking home. The kid confronted his stalker, got the best of the situation and got shot.
Much is unclear. Hopefully we'll know more (I'd really like to know who was screaming for help). But given the best case scenario for Z above it's BS he was not charged and a thorough and logical investigation was done.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 29, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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He wasn't exactly told not to follow.
The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that".
Hair splitting perhaps, but such details get scrutinized.
Still waiting to hear all the evidence,...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
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I have done body guard training, took the courses passed the test been licenced to be an armed bodyguard. There is absolutly no way many of these FL shootings would go unprosecuted in VT. They have removed all the obsticals from the ROE that are supposed to keep you on your toes and make damn sure that your shot is justified before you send that round down range. Once you pull that trigger you can NEVER get that round back or reverse whatever consequences it causes.
The ROE for trained combat troops in Afganistan right now is much more restrictive than the ROE for untrained gunslingers in Forida.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 29, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
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your claims of "stalking" imply zimmerman intended to kill him from the start; there's NO PROOF of that
it also implies, if you know anything about hunting, that zimmerman had his gun drawn, ready to shoot; there's NO PROOF of that; but this also implies martin attacked a man (according to eyewitness accounts) holding a gun, which certainly means he acted stupidly
all we KNOW is that zimmerman was FOLLOWING martin; was that stupid? in hindsight, yes; in the moment, not necessarily
would i have done it? if i was on neighborhood watch and there had been a rash of burglaries and the person in question was not familiar to me in my gated community and i had a cell phone to call the cops...maybe
so you claim it doesn't matter that zimmerman didn't know martin was only 17 even if he was 6'2"; so, if martin was only 5'2", it wouldn't be so bad that zimmerman killed him if martin was 18???
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 29, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
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So if I'm a black man or teenager in Florida and I am wearing a hoody and I see George Zimmerman, it seems like I can legally blow him away because I would be in fear of my life knowing that he kills black people in hoodies. No wonder Zimmerman is holded up. They better send him to prison because if that boy is out walking the streets again he is going to look like a piece of swiss cheese when theyre done with him. and all perfectly legal.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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Mar 29, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
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Fattrad- I don't know much about this subject and hopefully you can edumacate me a little. Do you think the proper way to go about this would be a Grand Jury investigation to decide if there is probable cause for an arrest? What are the option for law enforcement at this point? Thanks for any feedback.
My gut instinct is to declare Zimmerman guilty and hang him myself. But my gut instinct has been wrong before. I'd like see justice served, not revenge. I guess what I'm saying is this case has created a lot of internal conflicts within myself. My emotional self wants one thing while my rational self wants something else.
I just listened to an interview with the victims dad. My heart goes out to his family, I hope they can eventually find peace. Such a senseless tragedy. :-(
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Mar 29, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
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He intended to confront him. I'd call that stalking. First following in his car, then getting out. If he had just stayed in his car, it would have come under the usual duty of a Neighborhood Watch. Watch and report.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
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Bookworm you are one sick dude. read the transcripts of the 911 call from z man. even without the coon refrence it is the classic dialouge of a man on the hunt. I know a thing or two about hunting.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 29, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
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Nobody wants another lynching. What many want is thorough due process. For both sides.
none of us know all the facts. thats a fact jack.
let due process run its course.
when this story first hit i was with you guys ready to string zman to the highest tree.
now, it would seem that of course zman screwed up. i agree. but if the kid attacked him when zman was headed back to his vehicle, then this is one of those totally f*#ked up situations where the kid paid for his life by thinking he could just go thump someone.
bottom line.......none of you know all the facts. therefore, you are ignorant of all of the facts, therefore, you and I are simply spoutikng of what the press feeds us......
you guys do remember WMD's in Iraq right? lets bomb the f*#kers right???
still willing to make decisions on less than the facts?
edit:
i quoted this because although this guy disagreed with me i totally agree with the statement in quotes.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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Ok dead serious on this one. Rules Of Engagement =ROE
ROE for highly trained coalition troops in Afganistan right now is that the person Must not only be armed but aso be engageing you. If you do not see the busniss end of that AK or RPG poining directly at you, you may not engage. In many instances the US troops must wait untill the haji's actually fire on them to engage.
Florida ROE for untrained gunslingers. Any time you are afraid for your life you may open fire without requireing the person you shoot to be armed. There is also no requirement that your life actually be in danger only that you feared that your life was in danger.
Repuglicans, the most cowardly species on the planet these days.......
BTW fatty has it mostly right on this one. Zimmerman screwed up real bad and in most states even if Trevan engaged him in a fist fight zimmerman still goes down for instigateing the confrontation that ended in a homocide.
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