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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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If those that are bitterly complaining about the bolt chopping had successfully climbed it (CR) before said chopping, would there still be as much anger towards these guys? Just curious...and damn would I love to see the place. This is an arguement only climbing geeks can love. Who the hell outside of a handful of people even know what Cerro Torre is?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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RIP, Bean.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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"@Black Spider: it that's true, well, one can start to say, for instance, that the Cassin route at the Walker Spur of the Jorasses "A botch job retro piton/aid extension of the original Charlet/Croux 1923 attempt" (because Armand Charlet and Evariste Croux tried to climb it first all free and without pitons, while the reason Cassin did get through was that he used a large quantity of pitons in spots like the 90 meters dihedral or the grey slabs). Cassin and C. did summit indeed, but still "extension" was."
Did Cassin make as big of a mess on the Walker Spur as Maestri did on Cerro Torre? For instance, can you stand in one spot and clip in to a half-dozen different fixed pitons on Cassin's route? (the only pictures I've seen of the Walker Spur are from the Colton-McIntyre route). That being said, it's extremely impressive that Charlet and Croux tried to climb the route free without pins in 1923. Also, the distinction between summiting and not summiting a "route", although seemingly lessened in modern times (although Denis Urubko takes that viewpoint to task in the latest issue of Alpinist) is pretty significant when we are talking about making the first ascent of an actual mountain.
To be clear, I'm not even against bolting in the mountains per say. I think that, for instance, Steve House's rant in an old issue of Alpinist over Valeri Babanov placing 2 bolts on the entire Northeast Pillar of Nuptse was pretty excessive. However, as Colin Haley said, the Compressor Route is the single biggest instance in climbing history of "a climber going absolutely insane with bolts".
"However, don't expect this attitude to be considered popular in most of the climbing community. Right now the Cassin spur is regularly climbed all free, but no one would dream to remove all the pitons and say that Cassin never climbed it!"
I don't think anyone is trying to claim that Maestri never actually climbed on Cerro Torre. But he certainly doesn't deserve the credit for the first ascent of Cerro Torre for a route that doesn't even go to its summit.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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"I second also that a comparison with Stefan Glowacz is a very poor and uninformed on. Glowacz may feel strongly in relation to bolts (as I do, for what's worth) but he would never act in such an irresponsible way."
This is completely missing the point. I only grabbed Steck's and Glowacz's names because both of them are great alpinists with strong ethics, not because of any attempt to decided whether they would or wouldn't chop bolts. The question was IF they did, whether their nationalities would get dragged into it to the extent that Kennedy's has here (along with all sorts of people mistakenly calling Kruk an American).
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
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Like many discussions on Supertopo, there's a lot conjecture and speculation. I'd like to hear the climber's own rationale for the chopping, as well as additional details of the relative purity of their own ascent.
Rolo has described his feelings in detail, but I'm not necessarily assuming theirs are the same.
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nah000
Mountain climber
Calgary
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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the short version:
anarchy can either be respectful or it can be violent: we can either police ourselves or we will be policed.
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nah000
Mountain climber
Calgary
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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the longer argument:
after reading the opinions posted, i find that for me the central question is:
who is to decide the ethics of an area?
i personally happen to agree with chopping the bolts on cerro torre.
because i don’t climb there, i also think my opinion on this issue is irrelevant. it is not my place to control evidence of the past in that location.
even if i was an expert climber who climbed there. i wouldn’t see it as my place to unilaterally control evidence of the past. we no longer live in an era where we gain by having individuals control our collective past (or future).
the world (both climbing and otherwise) is no longer simple enough or large enough for us to rely on hierarchical power.
we no longer live in the time of the individual expert. we are either transitioning into or already in an era of the network. we as a climbing community can either accept this or bury our individual heads in the sand and continue on assuming that placing a bolt is equivalent to pulling a bolt.
if it is not beneficial for individuals to control evidence of the past, then what?
as others have noted one of the most essential and beautiful aspects of climbing, is its anarchy. very few have historically told us collectively or individually what we could or couldn’t do on the mountain.
as i see it, in many areas this is changing and we are left with the following choice:
we can either learn to have dialogue that creates and respects both spaces of ethical consensus and of ethical dissent within our communities
or
we can fight amongst ourselves as individual wild-west-like-men until we invite authority from outside our climbing communities. (ironically i see after writing this, from the posts that have transpired, that this has happened to some degree in el chalten, and we’ve already seen it happen in the u.s. to some degree)
in other words, we can either create our own spaces of limited anarchy or our space of anarchy will be taken from us.
the world is still large enough for every type of climbing to exist somewhere. it is no longer large enough for every type of climbing to exist everywhere.
different types of climbing are mutually exclusive: a via ferrata, and even bolted belays change the experience of a mountain for everyone who follows. and so does the erasing of history.
the determination of what is allowed where, should be made collectively by local climbers (and by local i mean by those who climb there regularly, not something nationality based). if we continue to rely solely on individual climbers what will suffer is the rock (via bolt wars) and/or our freedoms as climbers.
anarchy can either be respectful or it can be violent: we can either police ourselves or we will be policed.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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Thanks to Steve Grossman for bumping this old thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/825943/Cerro-Torre-the-lie-and-the-desecration
which includes some interesting statements regarding Maestri's own intent that his bolt ladders be chopped, and his starting to do so. FA parties are widely given great albeit not absolute deference about addition of bolts; it seems reasonable also to give them deference when they indicate that bolts they placed should be removed. Certainly a good justification for removing the route; whether that factored into the recent ascenders' actions or not one cannot say (nor does it really matter).
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Michi
climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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Dear Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk
Congratulations for your ascent of the South East Ridge of Cerro Torre and for climbing a line that avoids the Maestri bolt ladders all the way to the summit.
THANK YOU for chopping many of the bolts of Maestri’s 1970 attempt.
Well done.
On an attempt on the Compressor Route we have climbed to 4 pitches from the summit and found the bolt ladders an abomination and sacrilege. I vouched to never return to the Compressor route. Clipping and aiding bolts up a completely blank wall for hundreds of meters has nothing to do with climbing.
It was high time to make Cerro Torre once again what it is: one of the most beautiful and difficult mountains on this planet.
Michi Wyser / Switzerland
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jan 21, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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Greg Crouch wrote:
I’m a little saddened that opportunity isn’t in the world any longer.
Me too.
Not that I'd probably ever climb it, but it's one of those historic routes where I and others have thought "maybe someday"... I'm not in love with fixed hardware as a rule, but clipping some of the storied old stuff has always made me feel connected to history.
I have to wonder how many thousands of power drilled bolts the young conquistadores clipped to bring their skills up to the level where doing this deed was their due.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Jan 21, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
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A few evolving observations after thinking about this more.
It’s been stated that this was done “to show respect to the mountain”. If this is a matter of man-made devices left behind: I think most everyone is in agreement that 400 bolts was beyond excessive and poor style. But the new route added five more, and the belay bolts and other fixed gear will never be gone unless they are all chopped and the last guy jumps off with a wingsuit. So while chopping may have improved the hardware quantity situation, the simple truth is that as long as we keep climbing it, the mountain can never be restored to its “pristine” state. If this is a matter of style and culture: many indigenous cultures consider climbing certain mountains BY ANY MEANS AT ALL to be “disrespect”. I doubt any of the climbers involved in this feel this way about the hallowed Torre nor would they feel bound to honor such concerns if they were applied to the Torre by the Mapuche, for example. In other words, what one person calls “respect” may be, and often is, another person’s travesty, and when it comes to such trivialities and contrivances as style in climbing mountains, I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest all such notions are constructs of various egos and personalities and nationalities, especially noting the absurd locals vs. Italians. vs. Americans.vs. Argentinians arguments that are sprouting up here. If it’s a matter of difficulty: it seems like this is the particular form of respect being promoted here, that we “respect” mountains by rising to meet their challenges as closely as possible with the minimal amount of gear and artificial means. Fair enough, in fact, right on, I’ve always tried to embrace that myself.
However, the mountain does not think or care what we do. It’s a mass of rock. It’s not alive and it’s doesn’t relate to us. People, however, do care, do live, and do relate. So talk of “respect”, I think, must necessarily include a human component. One could argue, accurately, that erasing the Maestri route in the face of the existence of a demonstrated alternative now forces the climber to rise to a new challenge in order to succeed on the Torre. This is a good thing! However…to play devil’s advocate, one could argue that by leaving the old route in place, one could have presented a far greater challenge to future alpinists: to choose for themselves to undertake the more aesthetic, more technical (and not substantially moreso, from the sounds of it), and more logistically challenging line. I believe- perhaps naively so- that had this been done, the climbing community would have come to accept the “southeast ridge” route as the proper line up Cerro Torre and would have not only shunned the bolt line in favor of the variations, but would have considered future ascents of it to be illegitimate. And in the process, the human component of respect would have been honored by leaving the old line in place and satisfying those who treasure its historical value.
Instead, that choice has been made FOR everyone, forced upon them, by a handful of individuals, and, additionally, there are now a lot of very angry and upset people. This issue was greater than any one group of people, it wasn't up to a small group of climbers any more than it was up to the "locals" to decide. Nobody owns the mountain. So I don’t think chopping this route has made the world a better place, it has merely satisfied the values of one group. In showing “respect” for the mountain (as defined by some) there has clearly been DISrespect shown to many persons. It also seems like there is a real concern among some in this debate of the mountain being summitted by people who didn’t “earn it”. I would certainly agree that Maestri insulted the climbing community with his creation, but I don’t begrudge the people who repeated his line. I have the choice to honor, or not,what someone considers an accomplishment, but in the greater scheme of things it does not offend my sensibilities or invoke any sense of outrage that people have stood on top of the Torre by way of bolts. That was their choice to engage it, it added no additional litter to the mountains, it (on one level or another) gave people an adventure, it does not affect my choice to climb a more difficult and aesthetic line if I so choose, and any outrage I would have ultimately is a problem of my own ego. I am pretty sure the Torre isn’t offended either, since it does not have a brain. Crouch put it perfectly: the Torre itself holds “titanic indifference” to it all.
Personally, I don’t mourn the loss of the route, it is gone and in the long run people will get on with it and rise up to the southeast ridge. As I pointed out above, I deliberately chose not to attempt this route on my own trial with the Torre. My choice, made without judgment towards those who chose the Maestri instead. In the meantime, though, all this chopping has done really is to create an unnecessary conflict. We have much greater problems in the world that would be worth putting our energies towards, folks. Moreover, with serious access issues bearing down upon us as climbers, this makes us look pathetically weak and disjointed as a community.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jan 21, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
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WOOO-HOOOOO!!!!!!!
Hello Michi!
Check your email
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Luca Signorelli
Mountain climber
Courmayeur (Vda) Italy
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Jan 21, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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@BlackSpider
Did Cassin make as big of a mess on the Walker Spur as Maestri did on Cerro Torre? For instance, can you stand in one spot and clip in to a half-dozen different fixed pitons on Cassin's route? (the only pictures I've seen of the Walker Spur are from the Colton-McIntyre route). That being said, it's extremely impressive that Charlet and Croux tried to climb the route free without pins in 1923. Also, the distinction between summiting and not summiting a "route", although seemingly lessened in modern times (although Denis Urubko takes that viewpoint to task in the latest issue of Alpinist) is pretty significant when we are talking about making the first ascent of an actual mountain.
It wholly depends on what you think it's a "big mess". From the modern point of view, Cassin's climb was definitely "unethical": he used a lot of a gear, including "new" gear (Vibram boots) that had not been used before to attempt the climb, he used techniques that were disliked/frowned upon by the local scene, he went straight through a dihedral in the lower section nailing the hell out it (and this section was basically abandoned from the second ascent of the route because is illogical)... and you can't even say it was the state of art for the day in terms of difficulty, as four years later (1942) Giusto Gervasutti climbed on the same mountain, with much less gear, a route unrivaled in difficulty in the area until Harlin and Robbins opened their route on the West Face of the Drus in 1962 (20 years later!). Back then no one cared because in 1938 people had a lot to think about more important than climbing ethics, but there's little doubt that the route was - in terms of modern standards - "unethical" (if there's anything like "ethics" in climbing mountains)
But still the first ascent of the Walker Spur is a milestone in the history of climbing, a mythical route, and no one would belittle Cassin's achievement, neither decide to unilaterally "clean" the route without asking locally. Heck, if anyone did that, all hell would break loose, and we're speaking of a route 70 years old! When people suggested the Bonatti route on the Grand Capucin had to be cleaned (because new gear allows to climb it without using the old pitons) the suggestion was enormously disliked by a lot of people, including people traditionally anti-bolt. The reason was - the route had been opened that way, why change it?
And there are several instances of "high bolt density" routes that no one in its mind would "clean": think about the Camillotto Pellissier or the Saxon Direct on the Cima Grande di Lavaredo... bolted routes, originally climbed aiding, now free routes of great quality, but the bolts are still there...
I think that the whole debate here is not about being "pro-bolts" or "anti-bolts". Personally, I feel very strongly against retro-bolting of classic routes (and I've even campaigned to preserve the integrity of several lines in the Gran Paradiso area, who had been threatened to be retrobolted by guides), but in this case the point is more - what is the limit of climber's freedom to change an already established route, particularly a route that almost everyone agrees, bolt or not, is brilliant? If you give complete freedom toi a pair of kids to destroy a route that was there since 1970, why can't everyone else given freedom to do what they want everywhere (including - for instance - El Capitan)? And if there's an absolute freedom to chop bolts, without asking permission first, why couldn't be an absolute freedom to PUT bolts?
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ALPINEMAN
Trad climber
bogota
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Jan 21, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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On an attempt on the Compressor Route we have climbed to 4 pitches from the summit and found the bolt ladders an abomination and sacrilege.
and because you went to try a route that already knew it was so?
perhaps because it was the easiest way to conquer the Cerro Torre?
why so few climbers have tried from the West, because it was inconvenient?
michi: little consistent with what you say now
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e9climbing.blogspot.com
Mountain climber
Alps (Euro trash )
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Jan 21, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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Luca and Mark Westman you two really manage to be balanced and provide interesting thoughts, much respect for that. Your moderation of the topic I think is much needed.
Luca mention "And there are several instances of "high bolt density" routes that no one in its mind would "clean": think about the Camillotto Pellissier or the Saxon Direct on the Cima Grande di Lavaredo... bolted routes, originally climbed aiding, now free routes of great quality, but the bolts are still there..."
The only of the two routes you mention I have had a look at is Camilotto Pellissier and in my oppinion the big difference is that there is not splitter cracks next to the huge number of iffy bolts providing great natural protection(when climbed free most cant make use of all the bolts and all are of questionable quality)and that's a distinct difference to the Compressor route.
To "clean" Camilotto Pellissier would most likely also mean retro bolt a slightly different line some thing very different to the Torre chopping.
A bit of topic sorry
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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A few evolving observations after thinking about this more.
It’s been stated that this was done “to show respect to the mountain”. If this is a matter of man-made devices left behind: I think most everyone is in agreement that 400 bolts was beyond excessive and poor style. But the new route added five more, and the belay bolts and other fixed gear will never be gone unless they are all chopped and the last guy jumps off with a wingsuit. So while chopping may have improved the hardware quantity situation, the simple truth is that as long as we keep climbing it, the mountain can never be restored to its “pristine” state. If this is a matter of style and culture: many indigenous cultures consider climbing certain mountains BY ANY MEANS AT ALL to be “disrespect”. I doubt any of the climbers involved in this feel this way about the hallowed Torre nor would they feel bound to honor such concerns if they were applied to the Torre by the Mapuche, for example. In other words, what one person calls “respect” may be, and often is, another person’s travesty, and when it comes to such trivialities and contrivances as style in climbing mountains, I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest all such notions are constructs of various egos and personalities and nationalities, especially noting the absurd locals vs. Italians. vs. Americans.vs. Argentinians arguments that are sprouting up here. If it’s a matter of difficulty: it seems like this is the particular form of respect being promoted here, that we “respect” mountains by rising to meet their challenges as closely as possible with the minimal amount of gear and artificial means. Fair enough, in fact, right on, I’ve always tried to embrace that myself.
However, the mountain does not think or care what we do. It’s a mass of rock. It’s not alive and it’s doesn’t relate to us. People, however, do care, do live, and do relate. So talk of “respect”, I think, must necessarily include a human component. One could argue, accurately, that erasing the Maestri route in the face of the existence of a demonstrated alternative now forces the climber to rise to a new challenge in order to succeed on the Torre. This is a good thing! However…to play devil’s advocate, one could argue that by leaving the old route in place, one could have presented a far greater challenge to future alpinists: to choose for themselves to undertake the more aesthetic, more technical (and not substantially moreso, from the sounds of it), and more logistically challenging line. I believe- perhaps naively so- that had this been done, the climbing community would have come to accept the “southeast ridge” route as the proper line up Cerro Torre and would have not only shunned the bolt line in favor of the variations, but would have considered future ascents of it to be illegitimate. And in the process, the human component of respect would have been honored by leaving the old line in place and satisfying those who treasure its historical value.
Instead, that choice has been made FOR everyone, forced upon them, by a handful of individuals, and, additionally, there are now a lot of very angry and upset people. This issue was greater than any one group of people, it wasn't up to a small group of climbers any more than it was up to the "locals" to decide. Nobody owns the mountain. So I don’t think chopping this route has made the world a better place, it has merely satisfied the values of one group. In showing “respect” for the mountain (as defined by some) there has clearly been DISrespect shown to many persons. It also seems like there is a real concern among some in this debate of the mountain being summitted by people who didn’t “earn it”. I would certainly agree that Maestri insulted the climbing community with his creation, but I don’t begrudge the people who repeated his line. I have the choice to honor, or not,what someone considers an accomplishment, but in the greater scheme of things it does not offend my sensibilities or invoke any sense of outrage that people have stood on top of the Torre by way of bolts. That was their choice to engage it, it added no additional litter to the mountains, it (on one level or another) gave people an adventure, it does not affect my choice to climb a more difficult and aesthetic line if I so choose, and any outrage I would have ultimately is a problem of my own ego. I am pretty sure the Torre isn’t offended either, since it does not have a brain. Crouch put it perfectly: the Torre itself holds “titanic indifference” to it all.
Personally, I don’t mourn the loss of the route, it is gone and in the long run people will get on with it and rise up to the southeast ridge. As I pointed out above, I deliberately chose not to attempt this route on my own trial with the Torre. My choice, made without judgment towards those who chose the Maestri instead. In the meantime, though, all this chopping has done really is to create an unnecessary conflict. We have much greater problems in the world that would be worth putting our energies towards, folks. Moreover, with serious access issues bearing down upon us as climbers, this makes us look pathetically weak and disjointed as a community.
Best post I have read on the subject...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 21, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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Look at it. Hard to imagine this being anyone's idea of a 'history' worth preserving.
And if this is really your idea of 'history', I'd suggest contacting the Argentine police for a 'historical' Maestri key fob of your very own.
Good job boys...
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Jan 21, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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Healy-
Indeed, it's ridiculous. Yet, it's history nonetheless, and your disgust with it doesn't give you or anyone else the inherent right to remove it given that the field of opinion is fairly evenly divided and emotions obviously run high around the issue.
I think the most effective expression of one's disgust with that mess would have been to avoid it and climb the new, and better line, or the west face, or El Arca, and leave it for others as an exhibit of what not to do. Lead by example rather than imposing your will on others would be a step up from what was done in the first place.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Jan 21, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
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I think they forgot to take this with them.
Scott:
you did your homies proud. So did Steve.
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