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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 22, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
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In 1977 Hot Henry gave me a call and told me to chop the rogue bolt on his route. I flat refused what I took as an order.
Dingus, curious as to why Henry called you about this in the first place. You obviously had some other kind of history together, and maybe why it sounds like you have a hard-on for Henry as much as the bolt in question.
One 35 yr old bolt is barely worth clipping, and probably needs to be replaced anyway if safety is really the big deal.
Sounds like your attitudes toward one another is the underlying 800 pound gorilla in the room.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 22, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
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Survival,
would you think for an instance that I had swallowed the whole Amway Pyramiding Scheme of "From the ground Up'? Rock Climbing distinguished itself from Mountaineering say what in the 50's? Rgold quotes Art Gran and someone else cites Royal Robbins. Oh, I bit on free climbing, but never on the rest of the rules of that game that comprised what Kamp's tried to introduce to the Needles with his guidebook.
As for my proclivities I am far more of a hedonist than a status seeker. It seems the rules promoted stability only if everyone simply obeyed them. Most people are chickens_shits when it comes to chopping bolts. Kamps to me, "those bolts should be removed." While doing one of my hedonistic diversions I top roped a long overhanging face. With a short bit of reasoning it was obvious that by obeying the antiquated rules of "from the ground up", these climbs would never be safely leadable.
Yes, some Needles locals chopped some of my routes. But I told 'em when the midnight hour comes, I will be collecting quadruple indemnity. There was some crying but no more chopping of my routes. After all I am a local and if I were to chose a chopping mate as my mentor it would have been Odysseus, not Henry. All my bolt chopping has been in retaliation to those who took action against my actions, never to satisfy some chicken_shit who could not do the chopping for himself when a chicken_shit rule was broken.
It is amusing to me how some of you see Henry as bigger than life. Henry was not matchless. He may have traveled around the world on a silver spoon with the press following, but when he was climbing at the level of his skills he never got any further above his last piece of protection than his peers. Now you are uninformed if you think this guy would succeed in giving me an order.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 22, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
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I like this guy Dingus McGee.
He's got a good head on his shoulder .....
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 22, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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It is amusing to me how some of you see Henry as bigger than life.
I certainly don't. I'm not worshipping Henry or the "rules" at all.
Nor did I say that you should follow Henry's "order".
My point was why the big stink over this single antique bolt that can easily be replaced.
You're the one who's whipped into a frenzy, sheesh.
Nice post by the way.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Sep 22, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
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Werner?
Dingus, I can't follow your comment. Who is a chicken sh#t
then? Kamps, Henry? Or anyone who says bolts should be
chopped but doesn't do it himself? Or anyone who says
he's going to chop yours but then
doesn't, in the face of your threatened retaliation? I got lost
trying to understand that last post. No offense.
You know, my student Christian Griffith. He was raised in the traditional
approach, but with total freedom to be himself. He went off and
after some visits to France and hanging with the sport climbers
started his own movement, written manifesto and all, and made
a lot of rappel bolted climbs in Eldorado. These were 5.13 and +, and
he was as good, from a pure sense of the word, as just about any other
free climber around, a couple such as Patrick Edlinger and Lynn were
stronger, whatever, better weight to ratio, etc., none, though, of
which could touch Gill on the boulders in his prime, but no matter.
The point is that I didn't chop Christian's bolts. I was a little appalled
at first, because I had seen routes and knew I could do them, if there
had been protection, but I left them unclimbed. Suddenly everyone with
a bolt gun or a rappel rope and a good hammer and drill
could go up and do all the remaining faces. I hesitated to
judge, but did a little, a little sniping maybe,
even yet, but it was a different world. Another wave of climbers
came along with the idea that bolts were a good thing and could make
scary lousy runouts nice pitches, by adding a bolt here or there. This
was a group with which I really did take issue. It seemed to utterly
destroy the art and history of individuals who were the forebears
of our generations. Knowing Henry, I doubt he was giving an "order"
to anyone. That doesn't strike me as his style. I could imagine him
being in contact with someone of the area and saying, "You should
chop that bolt." A matter of opinion. If someone had placed a bolt
half way up Eldorado's Perilous Journey, to make a nice climb for all,
I would have chopped that bolt. Christian didn't do any such thing.
His routes were new and brutally difficult, and many climbers couldn't even
make the moves to get to where they could do some desperate clip. So
at least he had a genuine standard. But he didn't ever advocate bolts
as a happy alternative. Super Slab is a beautiful route, and I wasn't
about to start a bolt-hole war, when I discovered that added bolt.
I argued with myself for years about whether I should have chopped
that. In some ways I don't understand at all the variouis complexities.
But when the discussions keep deteriorating to these derrogatory
appellations, then we lose any sense of contructive dialogue. And
some of these entries suggest one generation is not going to give
any credit to another. I wish their could be a magnanimity that
makes sense all the way around, both in thought and action. In all
honesty I haven't been able to see the logic in a lot of these entries,
and maybe there isn't any. I can't see the logic in a few of my own.
Jeeze, I thought I was gone.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 22, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
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In the genre of Perilous Journey, perhaps Henry should have named his climb something of the kind--
Super Thin
Spooky Pin
Unsafety Pin
Loony Pin
Then the added bolt would have changed both the character of the route, and its referential identity.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 22, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
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Hey Survival,
no retaliation towards you. Thanks for asking those questions that were leading to the point I wanted to post. I do like writing as if I have an attitude. It may shed more light on my position.
I couldn't give one rat's A about what happens to the bolt on Superpin. The climb is not overhanging.
The post was for amusement and fodder for the Needle's locals.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 22, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
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Patrick Oliver,
I took up the word "chicken_shit" from a post of Largo. Are you using your literary reading skills? I would at least like the reader to think about what is the core of these people, who push rules, do no enforcement of them and then scream when their system falls apart. I think that their behavior is something the reader might question when he is thinking critically.
As I have said I am far more of hedonist than a status seeker. If you want to protect the accomplishments of the past Fine, but I honestly don’t feel your pain when atrocities happen.
The rules of this Kamp’s game are far too artificial to enhance all those positions of all those interested in climbing. We descended from apes or monkeys—they know the rules of this climbing game. And I suppose we are still somewhat wired for that way.
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SeaClimb
climber
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Sep 23, 2011 - 12:20am PT
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Really? On exactly what basis? Has pure physical difficulty and endurance in both sport and trad advanced? Absolutely.
Can I walk into a roped or bouldering gym and totally at random hand a rack to the folks in there and expect them to make it up a local multipitch trad 5.7? In your dreams. I'm guessing less than 20% of the folks who put on a harness this year could lead a multipitch trad 5.7 if you handed them a rack.
Has someone pushed the limit? Sure, but those folks represent a vastly smaller percentage of today's total demographic then the folks pushing the limit in the '70s of that demographic. So yeah, standards have continually advanced, but my guess is the percentage of the total demographic doing the advancing has shrunk year over year.
In essence, natural selection is still hard at work with gyms and the heavy commercialization of the sport providing a much, much larger gene pool to draw from than in days past.
P.S. Baseball players still look fat... Joseph, you tried this line of reasoning on cascadeclimbers. I have to call BS. I can take ANY of the top comp climbing kids, spend 2 weeks with them showing them the mechanics of gear, and they will crush on trad, because they have learned how to move, how to crank and how to rest, in short how to climb...
keep on dreamin' buddy...
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 23, 2011 - 01:19am PT
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Sealimb , then do it!. the kids will have a greater experience then just climbing till they fall with little or no consequence.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 23, 2011 - 07:37am PT
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Our climbing rules are pretty stupid at times. According to our childish rules if I do the FA of climb like this then everyone else has to do it the same way....
Some anal twisted souls would even say that because I done an existing climb this way that everyone else must step up to the plate and naked free solo. They only seem to come up with that nonsense when someone does a bolted line without the bolts but still to even go that routs is stupid +10
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 23, 2011 - 10:01am PT
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spend 2 weeks with them showing them the mechanics of gear, and they will crush on trad
Uhhh, You're calling BS?
The question wasn't can you give them two weeks of training first and then they will "crush". (I hate some of the hip words)
The question was whether you could walk up and hand them a rack.
We already know that they can crush and crank and rad.
My question is, why the feck DON'T they get outdoors and learn to use a rack?
And yes, I know that some of them do.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 23, 2011 - 10:21am PT
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Me too, I'm glad they stay at the resort. You're right, the gym is the best place for gym climbers.
I also loves me a good thread drift!
Calling LEB: C'mon in here and make it about you!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 23, 2011 - 11:45am PT
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What is better:
1. Free climbing El Cap
2. Free climbing a bolted 5.15
3. Free soloing Half Dome
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 23, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
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What is Better?
Free soloing a 5.15 bolted link-up of HD and EC.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
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Joseph, you tried this line of reasoning on cascadeclimbers. I have to call BS. I can take ANY of the top comp climbing kids, spend 2 weeks with them showing them the mechanics of gear, and they will crush on trad, because they have learned how to move, how to crank and how to rest, in short how to climb...
SeaClimb, first - who are you? I'm would guess 'Rumour' from cc.
Second, I didn't say anything about 'top comp climbing kids' whom have received two weeks of training - I said hand a rack to anyone at random in a gym and have them go out to a crag and try to lead a multipitch 5.7. You'd be way lucky if one in five could do it.
Dude, you totally make my point with your post - that gyms provide a vast gene pool for natural selection to work with via comps. You are inherently talking about training the top micro-percent of all children who put on a harness in any given year. Will those kids crush? Absolutely - and that's exactly my point - to find those kids you have to filter through vast masses of kids who will climb once or twice and never don a harness again.
Again, the people advancing standards in the 70's represented a much, much larger percentage of the overall demographic of the time. The people you and Largo are talking about today represent a very small percentage of today's very large demographic; i.e. the level of competency of the overall demographic has actually declined year-over-year even though standards have kept advancing.
Sorry, dude, but cast a wider net and you'll catch more gems - it's an unavoidable statistical reality of mining an increasingly large climbing demographic. It's no different than gold production today where we go through increasing tons of earth for a decreasing percentage of gold.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 23, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
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I don't think that the older generation were any less strong. They were just climbing different things, had poorer equipment, and therefore could not train the same way. But if you put a lot of todays top climbers especially sport climbers on yesterdays testpeices that probably weren't as steep or safe they might not do so well either. Hand them the rack(apperently not much needed) for superpin and say give it a go and I don't think many would get too far. Obviously there are acceptions.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Sep 23, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
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it is the acceptions that stand out.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 23, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
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There are folks pushing just as hard or harder trad now as ever. there were relativly few climbing that hard BINTD as well. Winter climbing has exploded. used to be a select few who could lead grade 5 ice. now eveyone and their mother is out cranking hard ice.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
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There are folks pushing just as hard or harder trad now as ever. there were relativly few climbing that hard BINTD as well.
The point isn't that a few climb hard, then or now, but rather how well on average does the total demographic of those leaving the ground climb. Largo and SeaClimb seem to think the overall mean demographic has advanced, I'm saying it has done just the opposite.
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