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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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A note to all the great folks on Ed's thread who've expressed interest in buying a hammer: we also want to know what the price will be and we're working on determining that as quickly as we can.
I can assure you however, that they will be in an affordable range. Bottom line - if we can't make it work out reasonably both for us producing them and you buying them (and with donations the Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation's Khumbu Climbing School as well), then we won't bother at all. We don't forsee that being the case at this time, but Theron still has to finish working through the costs associated with head finishing and assembly. We will post pricing as soon as we can and we are glad to see the project moving forward again.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 20, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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Quotes taken from the following thread…
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=853495&tn=60
…and posted to this thread for consistency and Ed’s approval (Ed always wins… because Ed rules).
“by the way, what are these hammers for?”
Why, for assaulting power drillers, of course!
“Anyway, the main difference between this hammer that Theron is about to produce and all the other hammers on the market (and in fact, all climbing hammers since the Yo Hammer and the Forest Big Wall hammer), is that this hammer is forged, the others are not.
Forging changes the grain structure of the metal, aligning the grains in the direction of "flow". This results in a much better hit/rebound effect.
There's a reason why all professional framing hammers are forged. Hammer with a forged hammer and your elbows will be in better shape after a long day of nailing.”
Sir Deucey/John,
After working for you in Flagstaff, you know that I have a hell of a lot of respect for you, your outstanding climbing accomplishments, and the creations that you have envisioned. The signed A5 hammer that you gave to me is way freakin’ cool and I am very happy that it did not recently disappear into the abyss of the Midwest. Thank you!
I would like, however, to comment on the above quotes.
Foliation in granitic rock is most intriguing to me… but I still haven’t been able to “feel” the advantage of the “foliaton” of a forged hammer head versus a cast or milled head in a climbing environment. What good is forged if the head/handle attachment feels like it is welded? I have found the A5 hammer to have a very harsh feel, especially when hand drilling. As expressed earlier in this thread, I wish that there were more interest in creating an evolved version of the A5 hammer. But apparently “classic” is what matters most to prospective buyers.
Although the Forshee/McDevitt hammer has a weaker overall connection between the head and handle (which should be improved), I have found it to be the most comfortable drilling/nailing hammer that I’ve ever used - 223 holes last season, 100% by hand and 100% with THE BEST HAND DRILL EVER DESIGNED AND PRODUCED – the Hurricane Hand Drill. My elbows feel great!
I know it’s too late for this rambling… but just wanted to say that I wish that we could continue to evolve, rather than stagnate. Carry on as you will…
Cheers, John. You will always be a bad-ass mentor in my book!
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couchmaster
climber
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May 20, 2009 - 11:23am PT
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The cost to redo the molds would have run into the thousands, that's even if you could capture the feel you want. Would an extra likely cost of @$5,000-$15,000 bucks been worth it? What John says is true, forging generally makes for stronger, tougher metal....all other things being equal.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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Rokjox, at the moment we are inclined to produce hammers with the first generation sling arrangement - webbing with an aluminum descending rings and just cord through a hole in the hammer base (see pic of my disassembled hammer up thread). Fish has expressed an interest in producing the slings which is pretty exciting and we hope to talk more with him more when he's back in town.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2009 - 05:21am PT
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Just an update on where we're at on the handle side of things. Theron and I just received sample handles from the manufacturers in TN and on comparing them with old handles from the box of handle Conrad sent we've found some differences that we're now ironing out for a final spec. Here are the differences we've noted back to the manufacturer and also asked John if he wouldn't be so kind as to jump back in with his insights on them. You can compare these to the pic of the assembled A5 that recently was auctioned at Tarbuster's benefit. I personally prefer the red handle, but would like it with the base chamfer of the yellow one.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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The blue handles look fine, the "top" view dimensions will be the primary concern, as they will have more of an effect on how tightly the head fits on the handle.
It doesn't look like you need to be concerned for the shorter top section, as I would hammer on each head onto the handle until the tangs were at the right position, then there would generally be a little extra wood on top of the hammer that would need to be cut off with bandsaw (generally 1/4" to 1/2" or so). Worst case you might want to design the tangs a little shorter, but first assemble one to check it out.
Just FYI, when you get the batch, you will see variances within the batch that will be similar to those you are describing among the three batches. It's not a problem--its the nature of how these fine hickory handles are made. The only critical dimensions are those of the top view (the width and breadth of the square part that actually fits into the hammer). You can expect a small percentage in your order from the handle company to be "seconds"--again, that's really no problem and to be expected. I wouldn't quibble over it, as long as it's less than a few percent. Just make sure to specify a min/max on the top view dimensions (again, the part that actually fits into the hammer head) that is reasonable. I did have to re-order a batch of handles once when they were all too small on top and it resulted in a sloppy fit, but that's really the only concern with the variances in dimensions from the factory.
Bottom line is that the variances you are pointing out shouldn't be a problem. Good luck!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
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John, good to get your take on things, it's much appreciated...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I like that blue handle best.
Already have the red and yellow...
The blue has less base chamfer, more useable handle area and not as much wasted as the yellow. Still, looks like "enough" chamfer without being too much.
Lookin' great!
Hey, did you see the bent axe style handle on those ACE hammers? Was that style not pursued?
-Brian in SLC
(may have to up my order to two since my current hammer is just about trashed!)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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Two more photos:
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WBraun
climber
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So ....
As the sun sinks in the west once again, you now have handle without a head.
Just yankin your chain as usual ...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
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Werner, Theron is on his way to the Valley to deliver the latest batch of beaks and get a little climbing in. We already have a new quote from Ajax on the heads and on Theron's return he'll be trying to wrap-up running the numbers on the costs of finishing the head and assembling the hammer. Also, it looks like Fish is in on it for the hammer slings. So actually, we're really are getting pretty damn close to finally pulling the trigger on the damn things. I also need to see if we can coax IHatePlastic into joining the fray with his new e-commerce infrastructure to handle the sales transactions.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2009 - 06:19am PT
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John, here is the shot of the tops you asked for...
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Danielle Winters
Trad climber
Alaska
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Hey there, I have been watching this thread with intrest.I really want one of theses hammers. But one of my first considerations when getting a Hammer with a wood handle is to pick one out with a straight Grain . The three that are in the photo do not look good to me at all . i know getting good wood now days is hard but have you giving consideration to that in your development of this project. ie: the lines in the wood should travel in the same direction as the swing . Hope that explains it some what, wish I could post a photo of what I mean .
Great job so far , keep us updated
Danielle
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Why is the pick on the hammer so blunt?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2009 - 03:22am PT
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Minerals, given you and Theron have worked together on the beaks I'm guessing he would be happy to make one with a pick any way you'd like it, but we're not changing the Ajax mold. We're pretty much committed in this inital round to just reproducing the hammer. Who knows after that when we understand the end-to-end process and look at any further demand.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2009 - 03:30am PT
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Danielle,
It's hard to distinguish the saw marks from the grain in the photos given how harsh the POS camera's flash is. I've marked the grain lines on the handles. John would be a better one to comment on it than I, but I believe these are all within the variances he deemed acceptable when he was making them himself.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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Education gained, details basically pinned down, and we are expecting a quote on 275 handles in the next week. Onward to Ajax and the forging of the heads...
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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Jun 10, 2009 - 03:49am PT
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bump climbing content
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Jun 19, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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Costs per each Hammer:
Deburr of Forging Flash: 7.00
Milling of Hammer Face: 5.75
Drilling of Carabiner Hole: 6.00
Heat Treating: 1.47
Sandblasting: 1.05
Assembly: 9.50
Anti Corrosion Dip: 0.65
Drilling of Handle for Leash: 0.75
Logo Removal: 2.00
Subtotal: 34.17
Previous Costs:
(2) Stainless Steel Tangs: 2.92
Forging of Hammer Head 16.45
Total: 53.54
Remaining costs:
Leash w/ Ring-Russ?
Handle-Joseph?
Assembly might be a little high but I am not sure how it will work out. Reading John's notes it seems pretty involved so that's how I quoted it.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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Theron, don't forget to stick some inbound freight in there as well buddy.
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