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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 21, 2011 - 11:27am PT
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. . . a reproductive health education program that I started in north India in 2008 . . .
Zeta, good on you. Very cool.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Apr 21, 2011 - 11:50am PT
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If you have read this thread and watched the "60 Minutes" piece, I urge you to read Krakauer's piece.
I downloaded it for free using the links in his thread. I thought "Three Cups of Tea" was one of the worst written books I have ever read, and I thought that Mortenson was a slightly messed up klutz (I don't know Mortenson and have only read the one book), but I did care about educating girls in Central Asia: I wasn't particularly concerned about the myth making in the book. (How could I; I am a climber: it's all about myths.)
But I was concerned about the financial issues of the way Mortenson ran CAI and the claims that 85% of the money raised was going to programs. Krakauer’s article lays out the factual bits on both the myth making in the books, but more importantly to me, the financial issues. My first thought was that this was not such a bad deal for CAI: they paid for Mortenson's expenses, he got any speaking fees and book royalties and CAI collected donations--$14 million last year. But a law firm advised Mortenson and CAI's board that IRS rules on excess benefits would not allow for this arrangement, and Mortenson could own $5,263,458 to CAI for excess benefits he received ovedr the three years 2007-2009.
This can be very serious stuff.
In 1992, William Aramony, the CEO of United Way of America for more than twenty years, resigned amid allegations of financial mismanagement and criminal activity, for which he was convicted and sentenced to prison.
Oral Suer was the CEO of the United Way of the National Capital Area in the Washington, D.C. area from 1974 to 2002. In 2002, he was charged with defrauding his organization of several hundred thousand dollars through misuse of leave salary, misreporting expenses such as billing private travel to his company, and drawing retirement benefits from the UWNCA retirement fund while he was still working there. In May 2004, Suer was convicted and sentenced to 27 months in jail.
The allegations of "Ghost Schools" and the hints of gross mismanagement of the CAI programs in Pakistan and Afghanistan detailed by Krakauer probably mean that CAI is toast. CAI's success was in raising money and Mortenson's ability to influence large groups of people and powerful leaders. If Mortenson is tainted, I cannot see how CAI survives.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
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I wasn't particularly concerned about the myth making in the book. (How could I; I am a climber: it's all about myths.)
One slightly interesting part of this story (at least to me) is how accepting many of the posters here seem to be to GM's "myth making." I suppose there's a certain amount of exaggerating that we can all understand, but to me GM went way beyond that (the foundation myth, the fake kidnapping, the Mother Teresa BS, and others).
Do so many of you really go around just making up stuff that you expect that everyone else does to?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
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Your IRA went down the toilet because of myths people made up. Where's your outrage?
Hehe, your comment may have made a little sense (not much) a couple years ago, but check current stock prices, see how much of an idiot you are, and then either fess up or just slink away, doesn't much matter to me.
(By the way, not that it matters in the slightest to this thread, I do have a certain amount of outrage at the abuses in parts of the US economy--privatized gains and socialized losses and all that. Not all us fall neatly into whatever compartment you think you can place people in--you're as wrong about that as you are about most other things.)
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Apr 21, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
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My first answer to the question, do I make stuff up?: Uh...have you read any of my posts?
I think it is a fair question to ask how much to make of the myth making. Personally, I didn't believe a lot of what Mortenson wrote, so I am not surprised to find that some of it is untrue. That didn't keep me from appreciating the effort to build schools and educate girls.
There is a fine but bright line between the truth, all of the truth, all of the time and the truth well-told.
However, I do care very much about the failure, at least in part, to deliver the promise of education, and Mortenson seems to have lied about this aspect, probably unnecessarily so since many of the schools seem to be functioning as planned. Krakauer also states this position at the end of his article.
Mortenson clearly mislead his funders in claiming that 85% of the funds raised go to programs: the CAI web site says the mission is building schools and providing education in Pakistan and Afghanistan. But when 60 Minutes pointed out that much less than this was being spent on programs, Mortenson, through CAI’s board, broadened the mission statement, stating that the rest of the money goes to the mission of educational awareness in the US, which is synonymous with his speaking engagements. If the mission statement had included both building schools and education for Pakistanis and Afghanis and giving speeches and selling his books, many contributors would have held back, holding their noses. Mortenson also asserted that the money raised in the "Pennies for Peace" program was going to schools when in fact a big chuck of it was paying for speaking engagements. This is not the truth well told, these are just outright subterfuges.
Maybe another way to say this is that if, in fact, 85% of the money raised was going towards building schools and education and there were no "Ghost Schools," then I would defend Mortenson and urge forgiveness for his storytelling. But myth making in the absence of mission fulfillment is just lying, in this case for personal gain. Everyone has a right to be pissed at him.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Apr 21, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Finally watched the 60 Minutes piece and did a little more homework. GM needs some awfully good advice. I thought that Krakauer seemed frustrated and dismayed with GM's shortsighted practices, but not really attributing evil intent.
Can CAI survive? I don't know that it is poised to outlive GM even if this ruckus never happened. I bet not.
How will GM survive? The changes he claims to be making seem to be in the right direction, but awfully late and not after the first warning that his practices were not appropriate.
The bottom line is that I would not entrust any money to these folks knowing that their history of lax fiscal management and lack of diligence about conflicts of interest.
I do remember some whining from board members about "do we really need an external audit annually" and certain policies for segregation of duties. The whining was about the expense and burden on a small charitable institution's staff. So long as I was the treasurer or on the finance committee, those had to be in place. You can not set up a non-profit and take people's money without being fully accountable for how it is spent. That is the price of admission.
Every leader needs to have people around him/her that will tell him what he needs to know, not what he wants to hear. It can be difficult to have a small institute and employ or have in the inner circle people who aren't telling you what you want to hear.
Sad. I believe in the cause. I can not support it through this mechanism.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 21, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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GM needs some awfully good advice. I thought that Krakauer seemed frustrated and dismayed with GM's shortsighted practices, but not really attributing evil intent.
GM's gotten lots of good advice from a lot of good people over a lot of years. The frustration is because GM won't listen to the advice. That is why officers and directors of CAI have resigned in protest and disgust.
Rather then hold GM to account, some people would rather attack Krakauer for bringing this to the public's attention, especially those people who have petty personal grudges based who their friends are (Sullly for example). But to discredit the story, you have to discredit not just Krakauer but the many other creditable people making allegations.
Gordon Wiltsie is unimpeachable. He was a CAI board member and the CAI's Treasurer. Takes good pictures also http://www.alpenimage.com/
The statement about Mortenson using CAI has his personal ATM machine was attributed to him.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 21, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
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A friend of GM's, Nicholas D. Kristof, wrote a column in the NY Times today entitled 'Three Cups Of Tea' Spilled.
Page A27, check it out.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Apr 21, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
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From Kristof:
But let’s not forget that even if all the allegations turn out to be true, Greg has still built more schools and transformed more children’s lives than you or I ever will.
This is bedrock fact.
It's important to acknowledge this much, come what may with GM and CAI, even for those of us who suspect the worst of the allegations may be true.
Ed -
From one of the NYTimes readers' comments as highlighted by editors:
Anyone who starts off climbing Mountains in the Himalayas has a serious ego problem. If you need to conquer mountains start a business not a charity. Charity requires humility. That doesnt mean you cant help others. But someone needs to provide some balance to this guy.
Ouch!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 21, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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My perspective is that no one has denied GM has done some good things. JK says as much too.
One question - somewhere I read that GM hadn't climbed any mountains in the Himalaya prior to his unsuccessful attempt on K2 that begins this story. I'm curious as to what people know of that. True? False? Somewhere between? It's a question of pure curiosity and regardless of the answer, it takes nothing away from the good that GM has done.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 21, 2011 - 06:59pm PT
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But let’s not forget that even if all the allegations turn out to be true, Greg has still built more schools and transformed more children’s lives than you or I ever will.
This is bedrock fact.
It's important to acknowledge this much, come what may with GM and CAI, even for those of us who suspect the worst of the allegations may be true.
That is true, but if I'm going to donate money, I want it to go where it will do the greatest good. If one charity uses all of the money to build schools while another uses 90% and gives its CEO a 10% kickback, guess which one I'm going to give my money to.
Giving to the charity like the CAI is much better spending it on Netflix. But I don't have a choice between just Netflix and the CAI. There are many other charities out there that do good work, keep good books that they open to the public and get regular audits.
http://charitywatch.org/
The American Institute of Philanthropy (AIP) is a nationally prominent charity watchdog service whose purpose is to help donors make informed giving decisions.
This web site will provide you with information about our organization, the charities we rate, and our method of grading charities. Special features will focus on top salaries, top-rated groups, and hot topics in America's most popular causes such as: Abortion, Animal Protection, Cancer, Child Sponsorship, Environment, Human Rights, International Relief, Senior Citizens, and more.
Other features include tips for giving wisely, a helpful-hints guide for getting the most for the dollars you donate; tips for online giving; answers to frequently asked questions (FAQ); praise from both the press and regular American citizens; useful and interesting articles on a variety of topics relating to charitable giving; and more.
Bookmark this page and come back often to see the latest updates.
The AIP's President was interviewed in the 60 Minutes piece.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 21, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
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One question - somewhere I read that GM hadn't climbed any mountains in the Himalaya prior to his unsuccessful attempt on K2 that begins this story. I'm curious as to what people know of that. True? False? Somewhere between? It's a question of pure curiosity and regardless of the answer, it takes nothing away from the good that GM has done.
I'm curious about this too. If he had participated in other expeditions, there should be people who participated and could vouch for him.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 21, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
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Ah, here is the passage - it is from the byliner.com article by JK. I found it upthread in a post by DMT. I've copied and pasted what DMT did:
"According to Three Cups of Tea (pages 10 and 44), Mortenson was an accomplished mountaineer who, before attempting K2, had made “half a dozen successful Himalayan ascents,” including climbs of 24,688-foot Annapurna IV and 23,389- foot Baruntse, both of which are in Nepal. But there is no record in the American Alpine Journal (which meticulously documents all ascents of Annapurna IV, Baruntse, and other major Himalayan peaks) of Mortenson reaching the summit of, or even attempting, any Himalayan mountain prior to 1993. Scott Darsney, Greg’s climbing partner on K2, confirms that Mortenson had never been to the Himalaya or Karakoram before going to K2."
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 21, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
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Girls and boys were served by the schools. It is my understanding the school(s) served more females than males though.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 21, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
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I'm curious as well (as to his climbing bona fides). It goes hand-in-hand with my comment that I'm surprised that so many people seem to defend his "dramatic license." That may be true with a few skewed details now and then, but his documented lies go *way* beyond that. I suspect GM is a fraud from top to bottom, but we'll see.
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Gene
climber
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Apr 21, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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http://rockandice.com/news/1422-krakauers-fact-checking-questioned
EDIT: Above link has been taken down.
But, says Harlin, "I think that people who are trying to undermine someone the way Krakauer is have an obligation to NOT be sloppy with their facts and research techniques. I have no idea if Mortenson made previous trips to the Himalaya or climbed those peaks. Just don't use the AAJ to make the case. It's bad research and misleading and could in fact lead to a false conclusion."
Doesn't mean much in the overall scheme of things.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 21, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
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DMT was quoting my post and I cut and paste it from Krakauer's byliner article. But Krakauer doesn't say Mortenson didn't do other climbs in the Himalaya but just notes that there was no record of other climbs and that others Mortenson on the K-2 trip thought the K-2 climb was his first.
I find it interesting. It's one thing to "compress" a time narrative-- saying that you stumbled off K-2 and into a town that you didn't spend much time in until a year later-- and it's another to call yourself a climber and make up an alpine resume, if that is what he did here.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 21, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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Yes, with CAI, most money was used as intended. Only 41% went schools, but that doesn't bother me as most of the rest was used to build an endowment or for public outreach. The amount allegedly misspent is only a fraction of the CAI budget, although it is a significant fraction.
The CAI is a legitimate charity that has done a lot of good. There are much worse organizations out there--organizations that are charities in name only with the only purpose of defrauding donors.
As Krakauer himself said, Mortenson is no Bernie Madoff. There are lots of organizations out there run by mini-Madoffs.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 21, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
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Thanks for the clarification GraniteClimber.
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