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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
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So, welcome to agreeing with me on "The Clash of Civilizations".
Delusional horeshit "theory."
I laugh heartily at you when you describe yourself as a "realist" and a mideast whiz.
Many others do too.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
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The replies to my previous post don't really respond to that post, which read:
"I strongly disagree that Christianity's main propogation was through the sword -- at least not through the swords of Christians. The way of Christian expansion was lit by burning martyrs." [emphasis added].
The replies talk about wars purportedly started in the name of Christianity. My comment was about the propagation of Christianity. Wars did a poor job of propagating Christianity. The first three hundred years of Christianity had nothing of the sort -- other than the spilling of the blood of the Christians. Even after the conversion of Constantine, the Roman Empire did nothing of the sorts of atrocities done to Christians prior to that conversion. Indeed, Julian the Apostate went back to worshipping Jupiter.
In contrast, Islam was a faith whose initial spread came through violence. The Crusades, which came several hundred years later, converted virtually no one. Indeed, the Crusades were directly responsible for the timing of the fall of Constantinople, which was Christian, although the Battle of Manzikert against the Seljuks sealed its fate as a territorial power.
I accept the argument that the actions of European invaders in the new world were violent, who often justified that violence as a purported attempt to convert the natives, but that was not the initial history of the church or the faith, nor is it its practice now.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
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My feelings were right on the money about Mohamed ElBaradei and future of Egypt
Looks like you're right, at least for now. Popular movements get messy, though, so we'll need to wait and see how it turns out.
John
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
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Give some time and Saudi will be next
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 31, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
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If so there will be a run on electric cars.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
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ohhh man
American Jewish leader: ElBaradei a 'stooge for Iran'
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
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Who cares what the Neocon scumbag "Michael Ledeen' says?
That idiot has less credibility than Richard Perle.....
Yeah, but what's that saying about a broken clock...?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
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Michael Ledeen isn't doing the choosing--the Egyptians are...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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A.C.-
Wouldn't say it's Neocons; look at the OP's comment above to identify the source. Then again, Neocon's are in agreement.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jan 31, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
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Fatty?
Ahad aham wrote:
"the muslim brotherhood is a responsible organization that has renounced terrorist tactics years ago. please do not confuse them with al-Qaeda. efforts will be made by some to blur that distinction."
Your response;
“Except when they blew up the Coptic Christian church two weeks ago.
You libs will believe any lie told to you, Bwahahahahahahahaha
How naive.
Oh, the #2 Al-Queda guy Al-Zawahiri was the founder of the modern Muslim Brotherhood.
The evil one”
Sure you were there Fatty for doing/did your time, Remember? Or is it I can’t recall?
LAPD’s Rampart's CRASH squad. Remember them or can’t recall?
Or the widespread corruption in LASD narcotics squads in back in the 90’s.
“An ex-Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy, convicted earlier of skimming drug money, testified Wednesday that corruption was widespread among narcotics officers and said he took part in beatings, thefts and perjury through much of his 14-year career as a deputy.
Testifying in the federal money-skimming trial of two sheriff's deputies, Eufrasio G. Cortez told jurors that he and other deputies often brutalized prisoners, used excessive force on suspects and routinely lied to protect fellow officers” Source LA Times Victor Merina March 19 ‘92
Police abuse
Police brutality is the intentional use of excessive force, usually physical, but potentially also in the form of verbal attacks and psychological intimidation, by a police officer. It is in some instances triggered by "contempt of cop", i.e., perceived disrespect towards police officers.
Police corruption is a specific form of police misconduct designed to obtain financial benefits and/or career advancement for a police officer or officers in exchange for not pursuing, or selectively pursuing, an investigation or arrest.
Police misconduct refers to inappropriate actions taken by police officers in connection with their official duties. Police misconduct can lead to a miscarriage of justice and sometimes involves discrimination.
Then there are the favor’s that your “chief” did for Paris Hilton when he let her out when he found out she donated $$ to his campaign.
So Fatty, let’s see a few bad apples maybe 10%, 15% and 20% being the most that are corrupt, on the take, of course then there is the “code of silence” for your service and still continues.
US military has them too. A few bad apples.
Same with the Muslim Brotherhood there are or might be a few but would say less than your brotherhood.
And as for your security details and you once had the chance to shake President Cheney’s passing hand, gave you a wink and said “good job, young man, keep up the work”, and then your Congressional contacts, best friends with the Pentagon, did not say but implied Mossad, Who else: too many?
Oh! And then there are your sources: cnn.com and the sfgate.com for your expert ME knowledge of the region.
Fatty: The Walter Mitty of ST.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
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A.C.-
Bingo! Give the man a----Camalot?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
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Just a question: Has anyone actually ever seen Bin Laden? Not "tapes" or "videos," but "in the flesh?"
My impression is he's the perennial "red herring," or "stooge in the box" who gets trotted out when the CIA needs a fall guy.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
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If Mubarak is such a dictator, then why are people being allowed to protest. A dictator would not stand for that.
He is not a dictator, so can we stop using that term. He is probably one of the most moderate Islamic heads of state.
I think that is why we try to work with him so much. He ain't the best leader in the world. But it's better than most alternatives. And yeah, the Muslim Brotherhood is not a band of great people. They can publicly say whatever they want, but look at their actions.
http://bigpeace.com/cbrim/2011/01/30/muslim-brotherhood-deception-they-say-different-things-in-english-and-arabic/
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
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A.C.-
Of course I knew that! Why do think I made that point referring to the OP.
I'm simply being a bit more circumspect than U.R.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
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Now that the name calling has begun, I think I'll retire for the evening. I was hoping that this discussion could remain civil and informational.
Fatty is an ex AIPAC member, Crowley! What do you expect from his viewpoint? In that case, it's a matter of feeling threatened.
Maybe I'll just "take a break" for a while, and let emotions calm down.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
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When an "overpopulated" country has very few natural resources, it is working on a real time basis. That the Egyptian government was able to achieve any kind of economic growth - is a wonder. It did so, I would say, because of a perception of stability. Apparently there are 50,000 americans there. That many expatriots suggests an atmosphere of stability.
How Mubarak was able to achieve that I know not. I can only guess. It has to have involved severe measures.
That is not to say what was gained was worth the price. Such is a decision each individual has to make. Those are individuals out on the streets of Cairo.
Not unlike the decision we have to make that our treating corporations as individuals but with none of the duties imposed on individuals - is good for us.
If you desire change you need to deal with the consequences of that change. And those consequences are never predictable.
Being human is such a bother.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
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If you desire change you need to deal with the consequences of that change. And those consequences are never predictable.
Which is why 'change' there may or may not be such a good idea. Everyone is acting like change is going to be great. It could get a whole lot worse...Very likely IMO.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jan 31, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
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Just a question: Has anyone actually ever seen Bin Laden? Not "tapes" or "videos," but "in the flesh?"
My impression is he's the perennial "red herring," or "stooge in the box" who gets trotted out when the CIA needs a fall guy.
Bin Laden is flipping burgers with Elvis somewhere in Minnesota; it's a well known fact!
TY
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
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If Mubarak is such a dictator, then why are people being allowed to protest. A dictator would not stand for that.
He is not a dictator, so can we stop using that term. He is probably one of the most moderate Islamic heads of state.
And we all know what a bastion of fair elections, free press, thriving opposition parties, and respect, human rights Egypt has been the last 30 years.
Oh...and I'm sure his son-successor gives a sh#t about those things. Monarchies do, don't they?
F*#k the Egyptian people as long as our interests are served.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
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Fatty-
I'm aware that there have been statements to that effect re: A.C. It's just an issue that both of my college roomates were (and still are) Jewish. I just don't like to get into public mudslinging contests where racial/ethnic innuendos are involved. It doesn't matter if you guys are Martians, as far as I'm concerned. I became involved in this "discussion group" from an intellectual interest, and a true concern for Human Rights, not the kind that get bandied about by various Internationalist organizations. I'd really like nothing better than to lift a glass or more with you guys at the next Facelift. Bluey too. This is supposed to be a friendly "get together" in a public forum, not a bloodbath.
I really have serious concerns regarding what's going on in the ME, since the oil issue is the elephant in the room. Not just for "driving aaround," but since I retired to ranching I see the importance of petroleum to agriculture and our economic well being.
The "present administration" is totally unfriendly towards drilling for more oil both onshore and offshore, and is in the kindest words I can find, totally fukking everything up. In Casper, Wyoming, it is claimed that it is the Oil Capital of the USA. It's had an impact on our state.
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