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Griff

Social climber

Felton, PA

Jan 9, 2011 - 06:58pm PT

sigh.

This thread sickens me.

All y'all needs ta grow the f#ck up.

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber

La Mancha

Jan 9, 2011 - 07:29pm PT

Well, we've done it. Mostly my fault since I started it, but I'm sure someone else would've started it very soon thereafter.

As many have pointed out, the vitriol in this thread is a perfect example of why the tragedy occurred in the first place. I am just as guilty as everyone else here of stoking the fire. But I'm not proud of it and I think it is shameful behaviour by people who should really know better.

But I can do something about it, and so I will unless someone can come up with an excellent reason why I shouldn't delete the thread in the next 2 hours.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber

Boulder, Colorado!

Jan 9, 2011 - 07:32pm PT

Not a fan of deleting really, but this thread adds nothing given the (sadly predictable) direction it has taken. I don't hold you at fault though.

I think a thread of well wishes to the victims and their families would be awesome - the few that are on this thread have been buried.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jan 9, 2011 - 07:33pm PT

Skep...we don't have like each and there are folks I don't like here. We should be held accountable for our actions and not post viral bullshit under a anonymous avatar.

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Jan 9, 2011 - 07:35pm PT

For god's sake, Fatty.

Pull that butt plug out NOW

Release 40 pounds of your mental BS in just minutes.

Plop plop, oh what a relief for all of us it will be.

Iron Mtn.

Trad climber

Corona, Ca.

Jan 9, 2011 - 07:52pm PT

All I want to say is hang in there Gabby!
Don't let that a s s h o l e win.
RIP to those who died in such a senseless tragedy.

climber

Jan 9, 2011 - 08:09pm PT

MARK POTOK: Who is Jared Lee Loughner?
Mark Potok, January 9, 2011 | 7:08:23 PM (EST)

Is Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged mass murderer who shot U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona, a right-wing extremist?

It's hard to say. When you look at the Internet material he purportedly produced, the first impression you get is that the 22-year-old now in custody for the shooting of 19 people in Tucson was completely out of his mind, or at least mildly deranged. His writings will be virtually impossible for most people to understand, what with his references to unexplained numbers, his fondness for weird syllogisms, his unexplained references and his apparent semi-literacy.

That said, there are some clues.

At one point, Loughner refers disparagingly to "currency that's not backed by gold or silver." The idea that silver and gold are the only "constitutional" money is widespread in the antigovernment "Patriot" movement that produced so much violence in the 1990s. It's linked to the core Patriot theory that the Federal Reserve is actually a private corporation run for the benefit of unnamed international bankers. So-called Patriots say paper money -- what they refer to with a sneer as "Federal Reserve notes" -- is not lawful.

At another, Loughner makes extraordinarily obscure comments about language and grammar, suggesting that the government engages in "mind control on the people by controlling grammar." That's not the kind of idea that's very common out there, even on the Internet. In fact, I think it's pretty clear that Loughner is taking ideas from Patriot conspiracy theorist David Wynn Miller of Milwaukee. Miller claims that the government uses grammar to "enslave" Americans and offers up his truly weird "Truth-language" as an antidote. For example, he says that if you add colons and hyphens to your name in a certain way, you are no longer taxable. Miller may be mad as a hatter, but he has a real following on the right.

Loughner talks about how you "can't trust the government" and someone burns a U.S. flag in one of his videos. Although certain right-wing websites are already using that (and his listing of The Communist Manifesto as one of his favorite books) to claim that Loughner was a "left-winger," that does not strike me as true. The main enemy of the Patriot movement is certainly the federal government. And so-called Patriots have certainly engaged in acts like burning the flag.

Finally, I think Loughner's reading list, although it included children's books and a few classics, had an underlying theme -- the individual versus the totalitarian state. Certainly, that's the explicit central theme of Ayn Rand's We the Living and Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm, among others. I would argue that that's the way Loughner seems to be reading The Communist Manifesto and Hitler's Mein Kampf -- as variants of a kind of generalized "smash the state" attitude.

Chip Berlet of Political Research Associates points out in a post earlier today that Loughner also makes a reference to a "second American constitution." As Chip notes, that is commonly understood to refer to the Reconstruction amendments that freed the slaves and gave them citizenship, among other things. Chip says that "raises the question of a possible racist and anti-immigrant tie" in the Arizona shooting.

On top of that, Fox News is reporting on an internal Department of Homeland Security message suggesting some tie between Loughner and American Renaissance, a kind of white-collar racist group.

I can't speak to those allegations. Outside of what Chip pointed out, I didn't see anything that suggested racial, anti-Semitic or anti-immigrant animus in Loughner's writings. Certainly, there's nothing I saw at all reminiscent of American Renaissance, which focuses heavily on the alleged intellectual and psychological inferiority of black people.

At this early stage, I think Loughner is probably best described as a mentally ill or unstable person who was influenced by the rhetoric and demonizing propaganda around him. Ideology may not explain why he allegedly killed, but it could help explain how he selected his target.

One thing that seems clear is that Giffords, who was terribly wounded but survived, was the nearest and most obvious representative of "the government" that Loughner could find. Another is that he likely absorbed some of his anger from the vitriolic political atmosphere in the United States in general and Arizona in particular. Perhaps no one made that point better than Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, speaking to a press conference yesterday. "When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government... The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous and unfortunately Arizona has become sort of the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry."