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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 18, 2010 - 02:50am PT
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please note that if you use this setup that it will be hard to screw it up, no matter what shape your mind is in, therefore negating the need for any silly check list attached to your harness?
or no.
we all place different value on our lives, so our safety should match accordingly.
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Reticulous
Sport climber
Sacramento, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 02:50am PT
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OK, I'll consider it. That being said, would my setup be acceptable if rapping one side and using cord in place of a second lead?
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Fish_Products
Big Wall climber
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May 18, 2010 - 02:54am PT
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Reticulous: OK, I'll consider it. That being said, would my setup be acceptable if rapping one side and using cord in place of a second lead?
In a word, yes. But, the knot you are using has the potential to pop through a standard rap ring, creating muchas problemas if it does. Look at the stuff I've posted above with the clove hitch. I think it is a far superior system to the one you thinking of using since it eliminates the possibility of the knot getting through the rap ring.
See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 02:59am PT
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I like the clove hitch.
It seems safer than the other 2 alternatives (e.g. a stuck, out-of-reach lead rope on an alpine climb, OR having to rap a skinny line so the lead line is available to climb to unstick).
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 03:32am PT
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Geez, there are so many factors that are necessary to make this system work smoothly and properly that, by it's very nature, seems to fail the most primitive KISS test. Maybe if you are rappelling a trade route with known fixed anchors this is OK, but for general use this system just seems way too complex to be reliably safe.
Bruce
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 03:46am PT
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Bruce - yep...
My interest is more for alpine or emergency situation.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 03:54am PT
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Rap ring / knot photofest part 17d:
I believe the anchor atop Serenity Crack p3 was SMC rap rings on slings (B).
Above is my guess at Brian Ellis' setup which failed, based on Japhy's description. I could be wrong. The only differences I noticed are their rope was 10.2mm instead of 9.2mm, and the rings were 2 SMCs, which have the smaller inside diameter. Harder to get that through the rings, but it did go through.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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May 18, 2010 - 03:59am PT
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"What I mean by "properly tied" is illustrated with two photos in a post on in the thread started in a vain attempt to avoid technical discussions here. The part about EDK's is at the bottom of the post."
Well I tried...and there is some good info there too if you have knott looked...
Jephy, my heart goes out to you.
Peace,
DD
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Andyfin
climber
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May 18, 2010 - 04:41am PT
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Hey!
My condolences to family, friends, and those there on the day.
I haven't used the clove not with the beaner, but it looks like an ok setup as long as the clove doesn't come loose for one reason or another.
For this reason I use a figure of eight with a locking beaner (with the beaner clipped on the leadline).
The important part is to attach the 5-6mm pulldown cord to the leadline knot with a figure of eight followed through, NOT THE TAIL. So if the knot goes through a ring with a large diameter partly or completely then it can be pulled back.
Sometimes I've had to pull down pretty hard if the knot is partly in the ring, that's why the knot of the pulldown line should be pretty solid. (Followed through 8 on another 8 is bomber no matter what the diameter difference.) To help the pulldown without wasting time, wrap the thin pulldown cord around you shoe a couple of times then press down with body weight while you or your partner shakes the lead line. This normally does the trick to get things going even if it jams mid way.
Another reason why you want the pulldown to be solid (and not a rubber band or bow tie) is that if you have to jug up the leadline to sort out a tangle, you will want your partner to be attached to your pulldown (if you are alone its a different scenario).
This in case you fall when the system frees while you are ascending. If the pulldown is not fixed you will shockload the top anchor when the beaner goes flying up to the top anchor.
I heard a good option is Mammut procord, it's light non stretch sling with a round diameter.
Be safe,
Adrian
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dacooker
Sport climber
Vancouver, BC
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May 18, 2010 - 08:45am PT
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My thoughts are with the family, friends, and the climbing partner of the fellow climber who met a tragic end.
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drennon
Trad climber
rocklin, ca
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May 18, 2010 - 10:02am PT
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such a tragedy, being an ex-climber. and a yosemite rock lover. it really pains me to hear these stories, especially how it happened. climbing takes in all sorts of riskd, and as climbers, we accept those risks. lets all hope he is in a good place, and god bless to his family.
you all stay safe out there,
scott
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bhyde
Trad climber
Ogden, Utah
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May 18, 2010 - 10:13am PT
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My condolences.
My heart goes out to the friends and family of Brian Ellis. This is very sad.
My eyes are wide open right now. I have been way to lax about my rappel setups in the past. I have rapped, with a pig, without a "backup" knot. Never again. Thanks for all the great advice.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 18, 2010 - 10:26am PT
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I thought about this yesterday as I was rapping into a back country climb. the anchors were slings on trees and set up with realy big quick links that would swallow a knot and looked like they would even let many locking biners pass through.. Stupid system INMOP
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 18, 2010 - 11:14am PT
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this is the best use of the internet, and this forum, right here.
jokes are cool, but this is the sh#t i am looking for.
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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May 18, 2010 - 11:36am PT
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Clint- that (and you) are continually impressing me with the steps you'll go though to clarify misunderstandings and/or get a point across. Thank you!
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LB4USC
Trad climber
Long Beach
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May 18, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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Reticulous, gotta agree with Fish_Products. For two full ropes the setup you pictured looks like overkill. We rap two fulls with stopper knots on each. Backups-to-the-backups are great until your rope gets hung.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 18, 2010 - 02:14pm PT
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what a tragic way to die...
in some ways this thread is like a train wreck- i say keep it simple.
if it's too complex to explain w/out photos or illustrations, maybe it's more complex than necessary?
i will just stick with a simple 2 rope rap on 8.1 twins, tied together with a simple overhand knot and an ample bite, snugging the knot for each wrap and after each pull. anyone concerned with their security while rapping might consider the TRE device, which can be used on one rope or 2, and auto locks on rappel.
these explanations and discussions are fantastic, but it's still means hauling an extra rope, educating every new partner you climb with, and obviously, unfortunately, a huge risk if it gets set up incorrectly...
be safe, people.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 18, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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For free climbing, all this complexity is why Vegas locals just climb with twins when they know they're going to be rapping.
That said, Fish's cloved-biner setup is the only one that insures the knott won't end up on the wrong side of things, and you really don't want to have to try to pull a knott back through rings/biner/webbing - ever.
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