Gulf Coast Oil Spill (OT)

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HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jun 12, 2010 - 10:43am PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/12/your-money/12money.html?hp

Punishing BP Is Harder Than Boycotting Stations

With each day that oil fouls the Gulf of Mexico, more drivers are weighing a choice at intersections across the United States: if BP is on the left and some other station is on the right, is filling up at BP an endorsement of the company’s conduct?

Demonstrators at a BP gas station last month in Manhattan. BP owns only a handful of the 11,000 stations that bear its brand.
Advocacy organizations like Public Citizen urge consumers to stay away from BP stations. About 550,000 Facebook users have clicked the “Like” button on the Boycott BP page. And angry people have picketed at BP stations.

This doesn’t send a particularly powerful message to BP, though. After all, BP owns only a handful of the 11,000 stations that bear its brand and is trying to sell the few still on its books. So those who wish to inflict the maximum amount of pain on the company are instead putting much of the hurt on the family businesses that actually own the stations.

Just how little does BP gain from its gas stations, besides whatever ancillary marketing benefit it gains from the signs? The gas in its pumps may not be extracted, refined or stored by the company and may just get a spritz of BP additives right before it ends up at the service station. All of this puts a mere handful of coins in the company’s pocket per fill-up.

And the gas that people buy when they fill up elsewhere? Fuel from independent gas stations, grocery chains and big-box wholesale clubs sometimes comes directly from refineries or wholesalers that BP owns outright.

Greenpeace has chosen not to call for a boycott. Instead, its representatives pose a different challenge: people who really want to punish BP ought to try getting Beyond Petroleum themselves.

BP doesn’t have much use for the service station business anymore. In 2007, it announced plans to sell the last 700 stations that it hadn’t already sold to franchisees. The company chose to focus on finding and collecting oil.

Once companies make a discovery, it comes out of the ground and ends up at a refinery. There, it can be mixed with oil that a variety of companies have poured into the tanks.

Then, the gasoline makes at least one stop at what is essentially a wholesale warehouse. BP owns some of these tank farms, but so do other companies.

Eventually, a truck pulls up to collect and deliver the gasoline to stations. It is often only then that the ingredients that make it BP fuel get added. “It doesn’t become a brand of gasoline until it gets those additives,” said Brandon Wright, a spokesman for the Petroleum Marketers Association of America.

“What BP gets from this is probably a rounding error in terms of overall revenues or profits,” said Jeff Lenard, a spokesman for NACS, an association of convenience stores and gasoline retailers.

Meanwhile, revenue for some BP station owners has declined as much as 20 percent since the oil spill, according John Kleine, executive director of the BP Amoco Marketers Association, which represents many of the owners and suppliers of the BP and Arco stations.

And does Public Citizen truly believe that the spill’s environmental damage and the resulting economic pain justify its attempts to starve service station owners of revenue? “We’re clearly not helping them, but I don’t think we’re hurting them,” said Tyson Slocum, director of the organization’s energy project, who added that its boycott would last only three months. “I’m not saying two wrongs make a right, but we felt that there would be minimal collateral damage by initiating a national boycott.”

For people who can’t stomach the idea of even a penny of their money going to BP, driving by the station in search of a more palatable option creates its own problems. Kert Davies, the research director for Greenpeace in the United States, said he was pondering this recently as he was driving home (yes, he does drive). “There was a Chevron, a Shell station, Exxon and BP,” he said. “I can think of really good reasons to boycott every one of those.”

Plenty of people head to a no-name station, a grocer or warehouse club. But it’s entirely possible that those drivers end up with a tank full of the very fuel that they were trying to avoid. “Pick any one of those retailers, and you stand a good chance of filling your car up with fuel extracted by BP,” Mr. Lenard said.

Alternatively, BP may have stored the gasoline and supplied it to whomever delivered it to a grocer or warehouse store. David Nicholas, a BP spokesman, said that he could not identify BP’s biggest wholesale fuel customers, but that he probably wouldn’t disclose them even if he could. “I think we would treat that as a commercial agreement that we would not discuss,” he said.

Meghan Glynn, a spokeswoman for the grocery chain Kroger, which sells a lot of gasoline, said the identity of its partners was proprietary. “We source fuel as a commodity from a variety of suppliers,” she said in a statement. And if one of them happened to be BP, how would the company feel about protestors picketing its fuel pumps? “We respect the right of individuals to advocate for their point of view, but we leave purchasing decisions up to the individual consumer,” she wrote.

Jeff Cole, who runs Costco’s enormous gasoline sales operation, did not return several calls for comment about whether it purchases fuel from BP. Sam’s Club, meanwhile, offers gas at 464 locations, some of which comes from BP terminals.

BJ’s Wholesale Club does not buy gasoline directly from BP, but a spokeswoman, Kelly McFalls, said that didn’t mean it wasn’t peddling BP’s fuel. “There is not a single retailer out there that can guarantee that the gas it’s offering isn’t mixed with some BP gas,” she said. “That’s just the way the fuel business works.”

These uncomfortable truths are a big part of why Greenpeace has not called for a boycott. Still, it hopes to use the spill as a rallying cry. “We would like people to think about this as something bigger than BP,” Mr. Davies said. “All of these companies have us literally over a barrel. They are the dealer, and we are the addict.”

So perhaps the best way for people to express outrage and inflict pain on oil companies is to use less fuel, thereby lowering overall demand. This is much harder than flinging brown paint at a BP sign, as many people have done. It may mean walking more or wearing sweaters indoors in the winter with the thermostat set at 64 degrees.

People who still need a short-term hit of righteousness may continue to avoid filling up at BP stations. But it would be nice if they picked up a week’s worth of milk from a BP mini-mart on the way home at night. That way, the station owners don’t suffer as much.

Then, the next morning, all of those drivers ought to go shopping for a hybrid.
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Jun 12, 2010 - 11:27am PT
E:

The relief wells will try to kill the well by pumping huge amounts of really heavy 17 pound per gallon or so thunder f*#k mud at a high rate into the blownout wellbore. The fluid is much heavier than the oil and gas, and hopefully the reservoir pressure. Then they will probably pump cement into it as well.

This failed on the initial kill try on the blowout, because the pipe was full of holes, and injecting at the surface is far harder than injecting down deep in the well. You already have a huge hydrostatic pressure on your side with the latter.

Relief wells are totally mandatory when you can't fix something.

And some of you people make me ill. Boycott BP? WTF? Don't you own a mirror?

It is my business, but I am telling you that this country should try to boycott all fossil fuels. Natural gas isn't so bad for a short term bandaid.

All people want is cheap gas. That is a simple synopsis of the whole problem with energy.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jun 12, 2010 - 11:28am PT
All people want is cheap gas. That is a simple synopsis of the whole problem with energy.


Yup.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
Jun 12, 2010 - 11:54am PT
natural gas ain't so bad, if you like flammable tap water,
MisterE

Social climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
Thanks, Base.

Here's Snaps10 link about cleaning up the spill, didn't want it to get lost:

http://www.wimp.com/solutionoil/
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Jun 12, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
natural gas ain't so bad, if you like flammable tap water,

WHAT? I know of very few cases when gas got into the groundwater, and they are pretty famous. The company gets the snot sued out of it. And it is a very small area. The real problem is getting saltw#ter in the groundwater. In the olden days, they would just run it down the creek. Chloride contamination is nigh impossible to clean up.

I am surrounded by thousands of gas wells, and they are way clean. The big deal is the road and pad, along with gas lines. They aren't visible in most places, but in an arid area, they are huge scars. I am not much into drilling in sensitive roadless areas.

You must be from New York and are falling for all of that Marcellus propaganda.

Methane is a serious greenhouse gas, but it has about a 7 year shelf life in the atmosphere from the stuff I have read. They just burn off that stuff in lots of places like the Middle East. You can't burn a flare at all in OK except during a flow test of a new well. Any more than that requires a permitting process that generally is such a pain that nobody does it. And if you have an oil well that makes too much gas, or even a gas well, you had better drill near a gas gathering pipeline system or your well will be shut in for eternity.

Methane is the cleanest hydrocarbon. We can't just go from full blast to zero on hydrocarbons, but natural gas is a bridge to new energy sources that are clean. This doesn't even have anything to do with climate change, which I believe in. It is strategic for the U.S. We are so dependent on foreign supplies from countries who hate us. But most of our imports come from Canada, Mexico, Central and South America, and along the Atlantic rim. We don't get a huge amount from the middle east. It is a long haul tanker run, and this is costly.

And one thing the U.S. has is a buttload of natural gas.

I really know the exploration and production end. I know about as much as any average person when it comes to refining and marketing.

We have absolutely no ability to think beyond the next election cycle. We have two wars to pay for. Raise taxes. That is what we have done in all recent wars. You have to pay the bill. Now. So I agree with the deficit hawks. We will be owned by the Chinese if we keep this spending up. I would rather raise taxes and cut spending, like Clinton did, than sell bonds to the Chinese so they can keep our interest rates low and have an exporting edge by forcing the dollar low.

It is a geopolitical game of risk.

But nobody can raise taxes and get re-elected. That is how the feds get income. I have said this before, but there should be a ten dollar per gallon tax on gas. Even more for coal, which is filthy.

China doesn't have much oil, but they have huge amounts of coal. And coal is by far the best fuel for generating electricity. We should handle the nuclear problem, which is mainly political and not technological.

Wind, all that. Every little bit helps. But our demand for energy is just ridiculous.

I have buddies who are killing it putting in wind farms. They are sprouting up everywhere around here.
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Jun 12, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
Oh, and the CEO of BP has been saying the most stupid and insensitive things. I expect him to be fired when this dies down. It would look bad in the middle of the crisis.

He is just a bean counter.

I really await a full investigation and commission report. Normally those commissions are staffed with at least some REAL experts.

The forensics will be fascinating.

And that well was drilled and cased. It had been logged, so they knew where any gas zones were..and had in fact dealt with them while drilling.

The displacement of the heavy mud, which has a higher hydrostatic pressure than saltw#ter, by saltw#ter, was a bonehead move. I have never seen a well plugged back by anything but heavy mud. You make drilling mud heavy by adding barite to it. Barite is heavy. Mud is a complicated substance. I have used snow white polymer mud systems, but it is almost always mainly bentonite clay with additives to keep ph, chlorides, solids, viscosity, all of that under control.

We usually don't even call it mud anymore, except in the field. The correct term is "Drilling Fluid." It is that complicated and monitored constantly.

The petroleum geology class is dismissed.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Jun 12, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
As I said in the other thread on this subject
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1191642/BP-oil-spill-is-an-INSIDE-JOB-GOVT-as-was-9-11
most Americans think oil=gas comes out of the spout at the gas station pump

There is an important difference between natural gas = methane and a refined liquid hydrocarbon at STP aka gasoline that is used to operate a conventional internal combustion engine. And yes 10,000s of gas station tanks across the US have leaked gasoline into the ground water but that has nothing to do with operating vehicles with natural gas which can also be used to operate an internal combustion engine if appropriate modifications are made OR natural gas wells contaminating ground water resources. There may be some very rare cases where a natural gas well has leaked methane into a water supply well.
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Jun 16, 2010 - 02:30am PT
Here is a perspective from the abiotic oil theorists on the disaster. Seems to be a lot of oil expertise on the forum, tell me if you think this is nonsense.

http://moralphilosophyofcurrentevents.blogspot.com/2010/06/abiotic-oil-gulf-oil-spill-could-go.html

excerpt:

According to Kutcherov, a leading specialist in the theory of abiogenic deep origin of petroleum, “What BP drilled into was what we call a ‘migration channel,’ a deep fault on which hydrocarbons generated in the depth of our planet migrate to the crust and are accumulated in rocks, something like Ghawar in Saudi Arabia.” [2] Ghawar, the world’s most prolific oilfield has been producing millions of barrels daily for almost 70 years with no end in sight. According to the abiotic science, Ghawar like all elephant and giant oil and gas deposits all over the world, is located on a migration channel similar to that in the oil-rich Gulf of Mexico.

submersibles monitoring the escaping oil from the Gulf seabed are viewing television pictures of what they describe as a “volcanic-like” eruption of oil.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
Jun 16, 2010 - 02:45am PT
they should get a valve on there, and from here on out, every penny of oil that comes out of that death pipe goes to the victims of the disaster, and for victims of future disasters like this.

if they want to plug it, you get a huge steel javelin like spike that weighs many tons and lower it into the casing until the taper seals the pipe.

with the amount of pressure, this thing might have to be 300 feet long, but i bet it would work.

i have seen this happen before. what the oil companies do is stall out with lame tactics, knowing full well, no pun intended, that the only way to stop this thing is to drill another well.

unfortunately, this stall out only workls for shallow water wells, as this is a real bitch down there, boy howdy.

BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Jun 16, 2010 - 05:33am PT
The idea of an abiogenic origin of oil and gas have been around for quite a while and are not widely accepted.

While it is true that there are carbonate minerals in some igneous basement rocks, oil and gas production are related, in every sedimentary basin that I have worked, to organic rich shale source rocks. The geochemistry is very highly advanced, and hydrocarbons can be traced to a specific source rock with a high degree of confidence. In basins where that source rock has not been buried to a sufficient depth to cause maturation of the organic material into oil, and deeper, gas. Deep burial causes an increase in pressure and temperature which causes hydrocarbon generation as the source rock "matures" over time. This is 101 stuff.

The widespread drilling of oil and mainly gas shales are an example of this. Those wells are drilled horizontally through the organic rich shales and produce gas. In the case of the Bakken Shale in the Williston Basin, or the Niobrara in the Denver Julesberg Basin, it is oil.

In Texas it is the Barnett Shale. In Louisiana it is the Haynesville shale. In Oklahoma it is the Woodford shale. Through the Appalachians, it is the Marcellus shale, and on and on.

All of these shales are rich in total organic carbon, and recognized source rocks in their respective basins as a rough rule.

BP drilled into a conventional oil and gas reservoir. The well was drilled from 3D seismic data, I believe it was targeting the fairly new lower tertiarly trend, and it looks like they hit a huge accumulation. That would explain the flow rates, which are very high. So they hit a hell of a well, cased it and set plugs in preperation to move the very expensive drilling rig off, and at a later date come back with a production platform and place the well on production. Some of that really deepwater stuff takes years from discovery to development drilling of additional wells, to finally begin producing.

There was a guy who was a great proponent of abiogenic oil generation in basement igneous rocks. He talked Norway or one of the other countries around there, to drill a very deep well in a recognized impact crater. Logic being, the rock would be highly fractured and would provide permeability for hydrocarbons to flow. The well was hugely expensive and only encounter slight shows of methane.

I am sure that you can wiki most of this up.

Go read a Petroleum Geology book. Don't go Google conspiracy websites.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 16, 2010 - 05:59am PT
The casing is cracked and likely for a significant distance down hole. That's the reason the top kill didn't work. Any attempt to stop it from the top won't work as you'll just erode the casing faster down hole. They don't want to do that because the 450 ton blow out preventer (BOP) is balanced precariously on top of it and seems to already be inclining towards collapse.

At this point it appears to be a real race between the bottom kill attempts and the BOP stack collapsing which, in a worst case scenario, could possibly even make a bottom kill impossible. For more details on that grim assessment go here:

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6593/648967

For an overview on sinking this kind of well go here:

http://www.treesfullofmoney.com/?p=1610
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Jun 16, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
Base104 thanks for the straight shooting.

Todays National Post in Canada reports the flow from the wellhead to be equivalent to 1 Exxon Valdez every 4 days.

healyje great links - thanks
MisterE

Social climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
Oh...My...God...

They have shifted from stopping or restricting the gusher to opening it up and catching it. This only makes sense if they want to relieve pressure at the leak hidden down below the seabed.....and that sort of leak is one of the most dangerous and potentially damaging kind of leak there could be. It is also inaccessible which compounds our problems. There is no way to stop that leak from above, all they can do is relieve the pressure on it and the only way to do that right now is to open up the nozzle above and gush more oil into the gulf and hopefully catch it, which they have done, they just neglected to tell us why, gee thanks.

A down hole leak is dangerous and damaging for several reasons.
There will be erosion throughout the entire beat up, beat on and beat down remainder of the "system" including that inaccessible leak. The same erosion I spoke about in the first post is still present and has never stopped, cannot be stopped, is impossible to stop and will always be present in and acting on anything that is left which has crude oil "Product" rushing through it. There are abrasives still present, swirling flow will create hot spots of wear and this erosion is relentless and will always be present until eventually it wears away enough material to break it's way out. It will slowly eat the bop away especially at the now pinched off riser head and it will flow more and more. Perhaps BP can outrun or keep up with that out flow with various suckage methods for a period of time, but eventually the well will win that race, just how long that race will be?...no one really knows....However now?...there are other problems that a down hole leak will and must produce that will compound this already bad situation.

This down hole leak will undermine the foundation of the seabed in and around the well area. It also weakens the only thing holding up the massive Blow Out Preventer's immense bulk of 450 tons. In fact?...we are beginning to the results of the well's total integrity beginning to fail due to the undermining being caused by the leaking well bore.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Jun 16, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
BASE104 is right on the mark RE abiogenic sources of oil

healyje: Wow that's a realistic but grim assessment of the situation on www.oildrum.com...thanks for posting that
nutjob

Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
Jun 16, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
BP agrees to $20B in escrow account, paid in over several years:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/16/AR2010061602614.html?hpid=topnews
nb3000

Social climber
Bay Area
Jun 16, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
BASE104, tuolumne_tradster, and others: thank you for taking the time to post up. As a fledgling geology student myself, I find your input invaluable.

Question:

Can you comment on how often offshore blowouts occur? I mean, I understand this Macondo blowout is unprecedented- nothing like this has ever happened before- but from reading postings on The Oil Drum site over the past few weeks, it sounds like getting "close" to a blowout happens fairly often. Can you comment on this?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 16, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
Base104, my understanding is both casings are ruptured and the seabed around the BOP is slowly both eroding and leaking. That is pretty much confirmed by the several atttempts at a top kill where they could never achieve sufficient mud pressure despite pumping way more mud than such a kill should ever take. That and the fact they haven't closed all the vents on the current cap due to concerns about raising pressure on the casings down hole rupturing them at a faster rate then is already happening.

As for the BOP stability, the mini-subs have inclinometers on them that show up in their videos and they apparently show the BOP listing. Given how little normally supports the 450 ton BOP there is growing concern about it collapsing altogether. If that happened, the next bad scenario would be the entire casing then being thrown out of the hole with the subsequent erosion at the bottom of the hole making a bottom kill impossible. Thus the author's grim assessment about us now being in a 'race' to get to the bottom of the hole before the BOP collapses - a race he doesn't necessarily think we're going to win.

I certainly hope he's wrong, but it's a scenario that looks to be supported by the 'facts' available.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Jun 16, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
nb3000: hear are a couple of URLs to start with...the 1st is a DOE website that contains up to date info RE the Maconda well. The 2nd is an international database of offshore oil well blowouts.

http://www.energy.gov/oilspilldata

http://www.sintef.no/Home/Technology-and-Society/Safety-Research/Projects/SINTEF-Offshore-Blowout-Database/

tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Jun 17, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
Recommended reading...

Google "Tad W. Patzek statement June 8, 2010" and download the .pdf of Patzek's statement to Energy and Environment Subcommittee of the
Energy and Commerce Committee on June 9, 2010 RE the GOM oil spill.
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