Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
just to be clear, I haven't changed perspective at all, even though I've been practicing this rather non-rigorous meditation.
the "space between thoughts" is a comment on the boundaries between discursive and non-discursive thought and has mostly to do with the role of discursive thought; a hypothesis that I think is apt has to do with the expression of our intention as it refers to our social behavior. It makes sense from an evolutionary point of view that explaining our intention allows for a larger group in closer contact.
this discursive behavior is limited to explaining those behaviors that affect other people, behaviors that do not have no need to be explained.
"thinking" does not neatly fall into one or the other category of behaviors. to the extent that we can use ourselves as an audience to explain our thoughts, the discursive "mind" is available. but there is quite a lot of thinking that goes on that is not discursive.
that doesn't imply that there is "no thing," though that is one way to view it... it is also possible that there is a lot going on there that just never needed to be expressed to others. our inability to articulate the "thinking" process is most likely a consequence of the behavior adaptation that led to the development of discursive thinking. the success of communicating the results of those thoughts, which is discursive and probably relatively recent, has emphasized that aspect of "mind"
ironically, this is where "objective" measurements and science might help in a description of what happens "in the space between thought," where we have no intrinsic vocabulary and perhaps no access at all between our "discursive" thinking and "non-discursive" thinking.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
One man's meat (discursive thinking) is another's poison (discursive thinking) apparently.
Here's an example benefit of discursive thinking our ancestors probably employed - as reflected by our evolutionary cousins...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyGeb_r8GsY
fyi, I'd never want to be without my discursive thinking (step by step reasoning and free association); I egg it on, I feed it; it's the main means to my everyday creative problem solving and to the joys (e.g., daydreaming) of the mental life; I never go climbing without it, I never work without it; I love discursive thinking, my own at least; wouldn't want to "be" without it.
.....
I'd say if you feel your discursive thinking is in overdrive (monkey mind or whatever), it's a sign. Go get busy with something. Maybe step away from the couch or keyboard or self-consciousness or introversion. Go busy yourself like all your thousands of ancestors had to do with their lives, day in and day out, with some problem or other. Then "monkey mind" won't materialize.
Don't blame thinking for over-thinking something (this silly, vacuuous thread's a fine eg of the latter).
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
takes all kind HFCS
I'm sure you don't "over think" anything.
|
|
BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
|
|
So Ed, are you experimenting with meditation as well? I have been working at it for a few weeks, and quieting what Jan calls the "monkey mind" is difficult.
I will say this. I have had times in my life that were very similar to intense meditation, or at least moments of deep focus and awareness.
The ones that come to mind happened when I had been alone in the boonies for several weeks. I highly recommend long solo adventures. The physical tasks become monotonous and you stop thinking in speech. After you have given up talking to yourself, you come to a point where your awareness of your physical surroundings becomes heightened.
One year I did a really cool adventure up in the Arctic. I was alone for 32 days on the first leg, and all of these distractions that bombard us in "city life" melted away. I became sort of a part of the landscape.
I feel very strongly that what many here call the "discursive mind" is so much a part of us and our actions that it is silly to cast it aside without examining it.
Drawing a line between discursive thought or the emptiness of meditation seems a little silly. Like a false dichotomy, I don't believe that there is a sharp line between the two.
Sharp physical experiences can take on a sort of mystical quality. I have spent much of my life chasing experiences. There are a few moments that stand out. I remember these moments well, while time spent under a roof in front of a computer is garbage time. It evaporates. I won't remember today, for example. My present experience is mundane and will dissolve.
Some moments are so clear. I've spent a lot of time chasing moments like that, and I cherish them. Normal folk wonder what the hell I am doing. At least here I can converse with people who have had similar life experiences.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
I'm sure you don't...
Oh, I sure do.
I don't think a week goes by where I don't acknowledge the art (skill) in the art of thinking and the role it plays in our lives. For better or worse.
I just don't fall into these "no-thing" and "discursive reasoning" and "objective measurement" traps. Set by, well, you know, let's just say someone who's totally out of his depth when it comes to (a) a "feel" for science, (b) edu and training in science - two qualities or skills essential to many "mind" mysteries.
And "traps" protected by, among others, his Lapdog. Woof.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
HFCS - you think that evolution is a "design"? perhaps you misunderstood evolution... or perhaps you've confused what the meaning of the word "design" is...
Yes.
Perhaps it's you who needs to bone up on evolutionary biology? and its modern language of expression. Regarding "design" - also let me add "purpose" for extra credit.
If memory serves, you're also quite eccentric concerning "belief" in science and "truth" in science. So on reflection I'm not that surprised if you don't get "design" in evolution or "purpose" in evolution either.
There is "art" in the languaging of evolutionary science as well.
....
btw, Ed, my first post wasn't a reply to yours. So relax.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
I've been meditating as a part of yoga practice for about a year and a half.
casting aside the discursive mind isn't what this is about, at least not what I'm doing. stepping back and watching things happen without the discursive mind as an "executor"
while there is a lot of interesting thinking that can be done, there are at least a subset of us who have come up against problems that benefit from shutting that process down and letting the other part of thinking grind away, however that happens.
meditation practice, to me, is another way of doing that... and is calming at a very interesting level. the idea that everything is deductible from a set of axioms doesn't help if the axioms are unknown, or contradictory and the steps of the deduction are not all clear and/or present multiple choices.
I suppose it is possible to go through life choosing only to address problems which can be so reduced, but that's not what I'm interested in... though obviously at some point logic is not only important, but necessary to describe those ideas which are inferred.
it is interesting that when we are alone for very long periods that the discursive habit starts to attenuate greatly. that doesn't mean we stop thinking.
a large part of finding solutions to difficult problems is shedding our preconceptions of what the problem is about. generally we are guided by our conventional understanding which can be quite restrictive. here logic helps quite a bit, but understanding may be slow to come. Quantum mechanics is an example were we have the most precise physical theory but we still have difficulty understanding what it is all about.
This lack of understanding isn't irrelevant. Feynman's complaint that Quantum Electrodynamics is calculable by a "trick" might be dismissed as picking nits. The renormalization program cannot be extended to all the field theories which are important, and limit our ability to come up with a comprehensive description of the universe. We know that the electron has finite mass, even though our theories say it has infinite self energy. Something important is missing from the theories, and this something will be obvious someday, but right now we are profoundly confused.
It would be great to chatter logically and come up with a solution, but we've been doing it for about 70 years and it's proven difficult to resolve that way. Feynman himself was known as a "non-discursive" thinker, often unable to explain how he saw his way to a solution to a problem. He had few graduate students, where as Schwinger was very "discursive" had about 70 graduate students. They both worked on the same problems, and in some ways, both failed to explain the missing parts of a theory they created.
I'm not saying that meditation is a way to solve these problems. But overcoming our habits of thought often opens the doors to the solution to problems that had previously been closed to us, doors we might not even have known were there. And meditation is a way to think about thinking quite outside of of our habit.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
Put differently, the basic nature of our sentient "minds" is emptiness, or no-thingness (JL)
I would argue that our "basic nature" is at the other end of the spectrum: the thinking mind. It would seem to me that our basic nature is one that come easiest into play. You have spent years attempting to escape from this, at least temporarily, and your prolonged efforts demonstrate that "the spaces between thought" and "no-thingness" may be worthy goals but certainly not our basic nature.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
re: overcoming our habits of thought
"Overcoming our (bad) habits of thought" is, btw, an important component of the modern, science-based "art of thinking" that many practice.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
so, HFCS, evolution is a design process with a purpose
maybe you can explain that, the biologists that I know wouldn't agree.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
No, the burden is on you. You get around to reading Selfish Gene, do that (frankly, it's astonishing you haven't already), then post up a few commentaries on any of the following: Richard Dawkins, Steven Pinker, Carl Sagan, E.O. Wilson, Jerry Coyne - or better I should say their works - that I'm imagining could be useful for context, then we can get into it. By then, however, I'm confident you'd come around to the usefulness and appropriateness of "design" (by natural selection) in evolutionary science, also "purpose" or "purposeful" (by natural selection) in evolutionary science. With all dues respect, I'm surprised something so basic even has to be explained in the first place.
fyi, I left neuroscience 25 years ago to take up evolutionary psych and evolutionary ecology. (For their roles in the so-called The Scientific Story that ever so slowly is emerging, at long last, in the current era as a basis of a modern "belief" system.)
"...the biologists that I know wouldn't agree."
Or, as an alternative, show these "biologists" this thread, or at least these pages, lol! (the rest is an embarrassment, eg to neuroscience) and I'd happily engage them.
You see, that you would find problems as you have in the past with such basic useful words as "belief" or "truth" when it comes to science (as opposed to religion or theism which, granted, makes a mess of them) really doesn't leave me with much confidence that we could acquire a meeting of the minds concerning "design"or "purpose" in evolution particularly since you aren't widely read in evolution or evolutionary biology apparently and already familiar with its language.
btw,
"evolution is a design process with a purpose"
No, this was never said. Not like that. Pay attn to the wording, yours and others. Also the context. The concepts (nuances, I guess we'll have to say, for the mixed company, though they're really not) are more subtle than this. Yet not so subtle that the vast bulk of evolutionary sists don't get the meaning when terms of "design" or "purpose" are used in evolutionary context.
Check your contexts, definitions and perhaps "habits of thought." ;)
.....
Hint: Evo is a "blind" process. (Certainly not an (intelligent) design process.) Blind. Without goal or purpose to the process relative to any mind, yes. This is even mentioned in the opening pages of "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins.
But to say any more, I'd be relieving you of YOUR burden. ;)
Time flies.
|
|
BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
|
|
In my job, I have to be able to freely think in three dimensions. A lot of geologists can't do this, and end up working in another area than pure exploration.
When I work an area, there has always been some past exploration activity. Geologists use those old wells as data points, and they can be quite scattered. Mapping is sort of like trying to map Denver using only the fire plugs. Each well is a vertical 8 inch diameter control point.
The process of mapping is a very thorough and sometimes tedious matter. I know that 100 geologists have looked at this very area, and I try to come up with an interpretation that fits that is consistent with the data and processes of deposition, structural folding or faulting, and shows of oil and gas. When you have built a county wide database of 4,000 wells, the big picture emerges. What you are looking for is something that was missed. A new interpretation is a spark of intuition in a huge dataset.
My best ideas have almost always occurred to me when I was not working. They might come while driving down a highway at 2:00am or while taking a shower. These ideas are often very complicated.
From these experiences, the moment of "seeing" the idea, often comes totally out of the blue.
Obviously the mind is churning away in the background. How this works has always been a fascinating question.
Have any of you others had similar moments of sudden insight? They are not always correct, but I search for a piece of paper to get this idea down before I forget it. I have to go back to the data to see if this idea is consistent. Not all of them are correct. Now and then they are, and one good idea can result in a lot of money coming out of the ground.
The idea, formally called a "prospect", is the hypothesis. Drilling a well is a test of that hypothesis. I'm not as prolific as some geologists, so I have a good success rate. Still I drill a fair number of wells which are either non-commercial or dry holes.
I think that this deep background thought is the same thing as what Jan has called the "monkey mind." It isn't front and center conscious thought. It is unconscious thought that apparently churns away in the background. Now and then a light bulb goes off and the monkey mind taps me on the forehead and says, "Wake up, dummy."
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
Have any of you others had similar moments of sudden insight?
All the time. Of course. It's an everyday occurrence.
It's how the mind works.
.....
I think that this deep background thought is the same thing as what Jan has called the "monkey mind."
No, I don't think so.
.....
I wouldn't call this amazing background processing, etc. "thought" or "thinking" at all. I would reserve the latter for what's conscious, for what I'm aware of.
As I mentioned years ago here on this site, Carl Sagan used to speak of an "arcane calculus" - akin to intuition - that seems to be a side of mind (mentation) that's amazing in ability and hard to comprehend in terms of how it might work. (It can keep one safe as he or she approaches a cliff edge, e.g.)
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
Have any of you others had similar moments of sudden insight?
All the time in mathematics. Something is grinding away down there, then sending to the surface the results. Probably not the same as "monkey-mind."
I've also had waking dreams where the solution to a problem suddenly appears . . . only to be found unsatisfactory when I write it down!
|
|
BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
|
|
Yeah, the ideas are not always correct!
What I find interesting is that when these moments of insight occurred, I was not consciously thinking about the topic at all. I was cruising through some boring task.
So I assume that our brains are working in the background all of the time.
I've seen science described as something that is rigid and boring. It is not. It is a creative process to be a scientist. It takes intuition to be able to understand complex, or even unrelated processes at the same time.
What I call the Monkey Mind is that quiet chatter that always seems to be there when I try to clear my mind during meditation. It is very hard for me to stop thinking. I conclude that the mind is far busier than we give it credit for. This background thought is what brings me these rare moments of insight. It seems to come out of the blue.
I've taken the Myers Briggs test several times and I always get put into the Intuitive/Thinking class. The "NT's."
Have any of you taken that test?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
|
The only time I have EVER agreed with Fruity is that "thinking" as normally used has some conscious intentionality attached and that the sudden appearance of insight or answers not arrived at thorough discursive means in not thinking at all.
Ed used the term "non-discursive thinking" but to my understanding there is no such thing. "Thinking" will always involve narrow focusing on one thought or related field of thoughts, which leads to the next, or develops into the next, and the progression along these lines are known as a "train" of thought, which is a great metaphor per the forward progression, velocity and momentum of the discursive process.
But when ideas and notions simply drop into an open-focused mind, "out of the blue," this is not thinking without the "train." Is it?
JL
|
|
BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
|
|
Ward,
That is a cool paper that you referenced. What I noticed is that they use the word "deliberate."
These moments of insight are not deliberate at all. They come out of nowhere.
edit: These moments do not occur while we are narrowly focused, as JL describes it. They often, or most often, seem to come when there is no focus going on at all. I'm daydreaming about something completely different, then a bell goes off and my "unconscious" mind produces a little telegram for my conscious mind to evaluate.
It seems to me that consciousness operates on multiple levels of awareness.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
Base:
I'll have to go over that paper again when I have time , it's been sometime since I first attempted to translate it. LOL
this is not thinking without the "train." Is it?
This is thinking that has cognitive antecedents that can be thought of has having dropped out of conventional sequence, with the intercession of a large gap between the last relevant thought and the sudden insight.Simply explained.
JGill reported that his solutions were sometimes incorrect non sequiturs . This may be because the sequential gap was too large allowing precise associative aspects of his memory to falter--- in the same way you experience a nocturnal dream but tend to forget it the longer you wait before making the conscious effort to recall it.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
I'm beginning to think that HFCS = madbolter1
and I prefer to read the science literature, which is usually much more nuanced than the popular literature.
the definitions of design all imply intent.
from Merriam-Webster online:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/design
de·sign verb \di-ˈzīn\
: to plan and make decisions about (something that is being built or created) : to create the plans, drawings, etc., that show how (something) will be made
: to plan and make (something) for a specific use or purpose
: to think of (something, such as a plan) : to plan (something) in your mind
1: to create, fashion, execute, or construct according to plan : devise, contrive
2a : to conceive and plan out in the mind {he designed the perfect crime}
b : to have as a purpose : intend {she designed to excel in her studies}
c : to devise for a specific function or end {a book designed primarily as a college textbook}
3 archaic : to indicate with a distinctive mark, sign, or name
4a : to make a drawing, pattern, or sketch of
b : to draw the plans for {design a building}
intransitive verb
1: to conceive or execute a plan
2: to draw, lay out, or prepare a design
—de·sign·ed·ly adverb
Examples of DESIGN
A team of engineers designed the new engine.
Who designed the book's cover?
He designed the chair to adjust automatically.
They thought they could design the perfect crime.
design a strategy for battle
Origin of DESIGN
Middle English, to outline, indicate, mean, from Anglo-French & Medieval Latin; Anglo-French designer to designate, from Medieval Latin designare, from Latin, to mark out, from de- + signare to mark — more at sign
First Known Use: 14th century
Related to DESIGN
Synonyms
aim, allow [chiefly Southern & Midland], aspire, calculate, contemplate, intend, go [chiefly Southern & Midland], look, mean, meditate, plan, propose, purport, purpose
Related Words
dream, hope, wish; consider, debate, mull (over), ponder; attempt, endeavor, strive, struggle, try; plot, scheme; accomplish, achieve, effect, execute, perform
Rhymes with DESIGN
A-line, affine, airline, align, alkyne, alpine, assign, at sign, balkline, baseline, beeline, benign, bloodline, blue line, blush wine, bo...
design noun
: the way something has been made : the way the parts of something (such as a building, machine, book, etc.) are formed and arranged for a particular use, effect, etc.
: the process of planning how something will look, happen, be made, etc. : the process of designing something
: a drawing of something that is being planned or created
Full Definition of DESIGN
1a : a particular purpose held in view by an individual or group {he has ambitious designs for his son}
b : deliberate purposive planning {more by accident than design}
2: a mental project or scheme in which means to an end are laid down
3a : a deliberate undercover project or scheme : plot
b plural : aggressive or evil intent —used with on or against {he has designs on the money}
4: a preliminary sketch or outline showing the main features of something to be executed {the design for the new stadium}
5a : an underlying scheme that governs functioning, developing, or unfolding : pattern, motif {the general design of the epic}
6: the arrangement of elements or details in a product or work of art
7: a decorative pattern {a floral design}
8: the creative art of executing aesthetic or functional designs
Examples of DESIGN
There are problems with the design of the airplane's landing gear.
I like the design of the textbook.
I love the sculpture's design.
The machine had a flawed design.
the design and development of new products
Correcting mistakes is part of the design process.
a number of design concepts
First Known Use of DESIGN
1569
Related to DESIGN
Synonyms
arrangement, blueprint, plan, game, game plan, ground plan, master plan, program, project, road map, scheme, strategy, system
Related Words
collusion, conspiracy, plot; contrivance, device, gambit, maneuver, ruse, stratagem, subterfuge, trick; counterplan, counterstrategy; means, tactic, technique, way; procedure, protocol; conception, idea, projet, proposal, specific(s), specification(s); aim, intent, intention, purpose; diagram, formula, layout, map, pattern, platform, policy, recipe, setup
Near Antonyms
means, method, way
See Synonym Discussion at intention, plan
de·sign noun \di-ˈzīn\ (Medical Dictionary)
Medical Definition of DESIGN
: a plan or protocol for carrying out or accomplishing something (especially a scientific experiment); also : the process of preparing this
—design transitive verb
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!