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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Apr 30, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
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The world is so full of a number of things, I'm sure we should all be as happy as kings! - Robert Louis Stevenson
I do find some of these SuperTopo threads to be very interesting conversations with an appropriate cross-section of intelligent points of view being discussed. I am especially appreciative of contributors who are much more knowledgeable than me on subjects where at one time I might have even considered myself something of an expert.
However in my opinion, most everything we think we know is probably wrong, and is based upon tiny glimmers of information within the incredible vastness of the universe.
From my perspective, the most amazing thing about humans is that we have such a large consensus of general agreement about so many things; where we really don't understand enough to barely form a preliminary opinion about many of them. Some of the opinions expressed here may be much better researched or more enlightened or myopic or biased than others. I don't see that hardly stands up to the perspective of the huge learning curve surrounding us all.
At our very best we are all like the old story about five blind men examining an elephant. Surprise surprise that one viewpoint appears foolishly inappropriate from some of the other viewpoints. Not to say that every contradictory opinion on every subject is correct...not hardly! However it is very likely there are overarching realities we have not even imagined, that bring together some of the most incredibly diverse observations. We certainly have historical examples of that and can be even more certain that we will see others.
Especially we tend to be so full of ourselves and our self-styled vast intelligence; as to overlook the fact that our local flavor of intelligent discourse is such a recent phenomena in our local time/space as to be barely equivalent to a flashlight on the surface of the sun. However we are each also privileged here as we are exposed to a number of very important points of view expressed passionately and eloquently.
We might all be the wiser for easing off on our defense of any particular viewpoint and listening all the more carefully to observations from each contributor. This would probably reduce some of the conversational friction and possibly help lubricate the learning curve for each of us.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Apr 30, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
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it was stevenson who said that, not kipling. stevenson wrote about happy, boyish, swashbuckling adventures. kipling had a taste of war and empire and was boiled a tad harder.
Happy Thought
The world is so full of a number of things,
I'm sure we should all be as happy as kings.
perhaps one closer to your sentiments, tom, might be "god's in his heaven, all's right with the world". i'm afraid my own delving into these disturbing areas for the past year turns most of that on its ear. and your "vast universe" itself has become dwarfed by considerations from physics which seem to tie in both to paranormal phenomena and indications from archaeology that strange things have been going on for a long time. "multiverse" is the new speculative, and the ETH is being replaced by an IDH. the vastness of "our" universe may merely be a distraction.
in short, the world is not what we think it to be, and even worse, we're being messed with in ways we can only begin to fathom. i don't think it justifies the usual sense of awe we are encouraged to indulge in. i think we should be starting to figure it out, and calling a few bluffs as well.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2012 - 02:16am PT
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From my Christian perspective . . .
There is real hope for our future.
We are messed with. There is real evil in this world that means us harm. And it will get darker before the light.
If I only dwell on the negative, then I'll get depressed. So, I acknowledge the negative, that it's gonna happen, but I long and hope for the future. I really like to think about the future, post Apocalypse, The Millennium, the 1000 years of peace and prosperity. We will be going all over the Solar System at that time. Natural Resources and free-clean renewable energy will be abundant and plentiful. The world will heal. We will turn things around for the better. We will do things GOD's way.
As they say, its darkest before the dawn.
Hey, I have a book I can read that gives me 20-20 vision into our past and into our future. GOD was brilliant this way. We can overcome. Everyone can read it too. It's widely available the World over.
I agree with the optimism of these following DVDs and books for our future, but they fail to understand the very real evil that is present on this Earth that works against us and that doesn't want to see us succeed, and who exactly is this entity and spirit that works against us (Lucifer, the anti-Christ, and his minion fallen angels and the people on Earth he fools into following him and his evil ways). Like I said, The Good Book even gives us a timeline and what is to come, and to be ready for it. But we ultimately will succeed with GOD's help, with Jesus Christ's help. It will get darker before the dawn, but it will get better one day.
So, we just keep doing what we know is right in our lives, in our personal lives, that which we do have full control over. It's what we can do at a minimum. If we have the power and ability to do more, then we should.
THRIVE:
http://www.thrivemovement.com/
(Official Trailer) THRIVE: What On Earth Will It Take?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OibqdwHyZxk
(Official Movie) THRIVE: What On Earth Will It Take?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s&feature=relmfu
Abundance: The Future Is Better Than You Think [Hardcover]
Peter H. Diamandis (Author), Steven Kotler (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Abundance-Future-Better-Than-Think/dp/1451614217/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1IXY4QRJEN1Y1&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
From Tom's previous post . . .
Asteroid Mining Plans Revealed by Planetary Resources, Inc. (with video)
"Planetary Resources, Inc. announced today its plan to mine Near-Earth Asteroids (NEAs) for raw materials, ranging from water to precious metals. Through the development of cost-effective exploration technologies, the company is poised to initiate prospecting missions targeting resource-rich asteroids that are easily accessible."
http://spaceref.biz/2012/04/asteroid-mining-plans-revealed-by-planetary-resources-inc.html
View our multi-media news release with photos and video: http://prn.to/PlanetaryR
We will get there. It will happen . . .
The Millennium, 1000 Years of Peace and Prosperity . . .
The World Ahead: What Will It Be Like?
Roderick C. Meredith
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/booklets/the-world-ahead-what-will-it-be-like
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/media/booklets/wa.pdf
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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thanks, Tony
i think several people here are subject to the famous quote from Hamlet:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. - Shakespeare
The phrase has come to mean that one can "insist so passionately about something not being true that people suspect the opposite of what one is saying. - Wiki
it appears to be so important to some people's personal well being, to be right about a chosen point of view, that you have to keep building an edifice of assumed evidence in support of that conviction; rather than to simply admit that we honestly may not have enough evidence to be certain
some of this endless argumentation has simply become tedious
it is a rather nice and comfortable viewpoint to believe that our reality is solid and explainable within the bounds of some assumed level of accepted understanding
unfortunately there appears to be too much evidence that this comfortable point of view contains strong elements of uncertainty
it is also very interesting and challenging to seek to understand extensive reports of unusual phenomena
unfortunately any attempts to do this tend to be attacked by people who are more comfortable declaring all such observations of unusual phenomena to be delusional
seems like we are surrounded by so many accusations of mythology that only a fool will lay claim to a conviction of understanding
there are no clean faces in a food fight
how about if each of you with a strong conviction for a particular point of view, swap sides at the table (just in the interest of due diligence and amusement); and use your considerable intellect to generate supporting arguments in favor of the other point of view...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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klimmer, you are pulled in so many directions here i can only give you my sympathy. some do protest too much, but some argue not so much to convince others as to convince themselves.
tom raises the subject of mythology. i did a couple years of grad school at ucla in the early 80s. my interest then, as now, was folk music. ucla has a prominent program in ethnomusicology, but they shunted me over to their now defunct folklore and mythology program, and for a couple years i looked at academic mythology out of the corner of my eye, wishing walter starkie was still around to play the gypsy violin.
who are the great mythologists? claude levi-strauss seemed to be on every professor's lips. mircea eliade came to visit once. nobody liked joseph campbell, whom i discovered a couple years after i left.
mythology is a difficult pursuit. you have to take all the religions and beliefs of the world and attempt to make scientific sense of them. there aren't many who try. i think campbell was about the best, but, in light of "the phenomenon", as jacques vallee has dubbed it, the entire approach must be re-thought.
academic mythology is based on the premise that all of our aspiring beliefs derive from within us. as campbell put it, "myth comes from our bodies". but this interpretation assumes that humans have evolved quietly on our "backwater" planet over the past 2.5 billion years. this evolution has apparently been exponential, taking giant leaps like the powers of 10--in the archaic, at the cambrian, in the post-cretaceous, and then in the recent. and then in the ancient world, then the modern one, then the 20th century. we tell ourselves these developments have occurred wonderfully "from within", but there is much evidence which indicates otherwise.
levi-strauss and campbell are mythologists in the vein of scientific orthodoxy. they take that "isolationist" perspective, that earth is merely a physical backwater, that life evolved here as sort of a fluke. eliade, on the other hand, followed a course similar to jacques vallee, and even carl sagan at one point. he turned to writing fiction, a better way of dealing with the truth than in nonfiction books and scientific papers. but don't kid yourself--it isn't "normal" fiction.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2012 - 10:24am PT
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Tom and Tony,
You both can try to dismiss it all and say it's a myth. The Good Book is just made-up and GOD (if there is a GOD) is mythical and mostly made-up too. We don't know what the truth is. I'm just gonna sit on my hands and be dumb-founded and be agnostic about it all. Gee, what else can I do?
But when The Good Book says A, then B, then C, and then D, . . . and then Z will happen and it does just as The Good Book and GOD said it would, then what are you going to say and do?
GOD will sit back and say "I told you so. I even gave you a book to read at your leisure in black and white to read that explains it all. The past and future. I'm Omnipotent. I told you so. Why didn't you listen?"
And I'm gonna say, "What he said. Why didn't you listen?"
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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The funny thing about mythology is in the way a person can look at it see it and accept it in other cultures and earlier humans then deny any of the of the psychology of it applies to them personally.
Can a person both go to church on Sundays and study mythology rationally and without bias? Does their bias lead them to conclusions that early mythology is actually a reflection of facts? Or do they simply ignore all of the psychology that might suggest they they too are falling for the same old story that all of those old cultures fell for when it came to their mythology?
The study of modern mythology would be interesting. There are living subjects that are clearly wrong about how God and the universe works yet have a huge amount of history and mythology telling them that they are right. I hung out with a guy in India who had made a deal with one of his gods. He needed something and was willing to make a sacrifice to a god to get it. He didn't seem at all hesitant in his belief. Of course being vegetarian 6 days a week as a sacrifice seemed a little insufficient to me.
Dave
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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don't you just love to paint yourself into that scenario? but you'll die before it happens, klim, just like every other can't-wait-for-it-all-to-be-over christian of the past 2,000 years.
the problem is, buddy, you're closing your mind to material which doesn't fit into your picture. in that, you're ignoring many keys to figuring this out--just as your detractors here ignore just about everything.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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GOD will sit back and say "I told you so. I even gave you a book to read at your leasure in black and white to read that explians it all. The past and future. I'm Omnipotent. I told you so. Why didn't you listen?"
He gave some other people books to read too. I'm not sure which one to use. How did you pick one or did someone pick it for you when you were born?
Dave
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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klimmer, "the phenomenon" has certain definitive characteristics. yes, it is deceptive. but, as i said before, your god is deceptive as well, never forthright with the human race as to its real status, always manipulative, and more often the source of conflict than of harmony or clarity. consider your god as part of the phenomenon, and the phenomenon begins to make more sense.
we recently discussed hunt for the skinwalker. i found it interesting to compare that with material which derives from the bradshaw ranch near sedona, arizona, in a couple of books in which tom dongo participated. very similar material, but, ironically, responsive to the humans who perceived it in somewhat different ways than occurred at the ranch in utah. that's an aspect you're not considering, but which can be seen throughout this "mythic" material, both within and outside of your bible. there's a dance going on, and it's different for each of the dancers.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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...just as your detractors here ignore just about everything.
Ignoring the ark on the moon seems justified since there is no way to determine if it isn't just a photoshop hoax. I believe in the conspiracy of foil-hat-guys telling me this is true just for fun, or because they are crazy, as much as believe in any conspiracy to cover it up.
Ignoring the Bible is as easy as ignoring to Qua-ran if you have no vested interest in either. I would ignore the Bible as easily as I would ignore Egyptian Hieroglyphs, which is to say, I ignore neither of them! They both hold the same weight to someone without bias.
There are even book about there being no God although there can be no evidence of that. Because of this simple scientific fact that you cannot prove something false, no weight is given to any "proof" that there is no god.
I do come very close to ignoring people who say they hear voices in their head but only as far as that being any sort of proof of God. Too many people hear voices that are not God who are in mental institutions so head-voices cannot be a trusted source of information.
Prophecy is just too vague and too often wrong. Any that comes true is certainly taken at face value as being evidence of God and none of it is just ignored.
So there is lots of stuff that seems to get ignored but it is just not taken as a singular thing or a singular event. Take in all of the information about mythology, God, aliens, and materialism, and it's all really confusing and strange but no clear path shows itself to the person who was not trained from birth to accept one set of information over all others.
Dave
P.S. I have prayed and I have meditated but have done neither with any deep belief that I was doing the absolute right thing. Maybe that 100% belief is required for it to work and I will certainly accept that my shortcoming of belief is what keeps me from spiritual enlightenment. then again, I don't belief that statement 100% either. Ah the life of a cynic.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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if you're a serious scientist or scholar, rector, you don't ignore anything. what you ignore, you ignore at your peril.
as i've pointed out previously, there are many others who have weighed in on strange lunar phenomena. klimmer's little "ark" picture is the tip of the iceberg, and the reports go far enough back, as into the collections of charles fort, that they must be taken seriously. unless, of course, you choose to ignore. but the word "ignorant" doesn't imply stupidity or lack of native intellect. it implies a willful closing of the mind.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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My dad was a serious scholar of the bible. 'The Interpreter's Bible' is the size of Encyclopedia Britannica and shows multiple interpretations and commentaries for each phrase of the bible. His copy was heavily bookmarked and annotated. I spent many hours of my life listening to his sermons and discussions.
I was also married for ten years to a scholarly Jewish woman and spent many hours attending Torah study discussion groups (she is still a good friend; and incidentally she manages a lab full of physicists and doesn't believe in God)
Anyway it's find to recommend a book or occasional quote, but please don't keep spending time here lecturing us endlessly about the bible. You aren't convincing anyone of anything; quite the reverse. There are many other available forums devoted to that, for those who feel motivated to pursue that line of interest.
When I want to read a book, my house looks like a library, including family bibles going back well over 100 years. I also have books from many other religions and philosophies. I am sure others here have even more.
However I am very interested in sharing personal experiences and philosophical viewpoints with people who are experienced climbers; and who bring that experience to bear upon other aspects of life. That includes Christians and atheists and whatever. I have my own viewpoints towards life and tend to feel more comfortable sharing in this odd collection of climbers than in most other places.
We've mostly all been exposed to a broad range of religions and philosophies, and we have had time to make our choices and learn to live with them. I have learned a lot from many of the people here, including Klimmer. But we don't need to waste our time proselytizing each other.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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if you're a serious scientist or scholar, rector, you don't ignore anything.
True, you evaluate everything and then dismiss some things out of hand, look into and write off other things, and examine yet other things and decide they merit further observation.
P.S. The bible would be more interesting if they had given it to Edith Hamilton for a couple of years of research and editing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I was also married for ten years to a scholarly Jewish woman and spent many hours attending Torah study discussion groups (she is still a good friend; and incidentally she manages a lab full of physicists and doesn't believe in God)
Evidence of Spirituality practiced, not just preached. Good friends with ex-wife
Peace
Karl
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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GOD will sit back and say "I told you so. I even gave you a book to read at your leisure in black and white to read that explains it all. The past and future. I'm Omnipotent. I told you so. Why didn't you listen?"
So if "god" is so hell-bent on us believing your version of existence, why then doesn't "he" just show up and do something so undeniably spectacular that even the most skeptical of us couldn't argue with. I mean, he's omnipotent, right?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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May 3, 2012 - 10:01am PT
I said ...
GOD will sit back and say "I told you so. I even gave you a book to read at your leisure in black and white to read that explains it all. The past and future. I'm Omnipotent. I told you so. Why didn't you listen?"
You responded ...
So if "god" is so hell-bent on us believing your version of existence, why then doesn't "he" just show up and do something so undeniably spectacular that even the most skeptical of us couldn't argue with. I mean, he's omnipotent, right?
Our ways are not GOD's ways. He says so many, many times throughout The Good Book.
Also to do so, would be a direct assault against our free-will. GOD is much more thoughtful and much more subtle perhaps.
The Good Book also says he is very patient and he waits for more to turn to him, not wanting anyone to perish. That is why he tarries.
He knows his time. He will at some point say no more time. And that will be it. Judgement.
You responded ...
So if "god" is so hell-bent on us believing your version of existence, why then doesn't "he" just show up and do something so undeniably spectacular that even the most skeptical of us couldn't argue with. I mean, he's omnipotent, right?
I think you are failing to recall the life of Jesus Christ, Emmanuel, GOD with Us. We has here for about 30-33 years on Earth, and lived a life without sin, and gave us a perfect example on how to live our lives. And then he died for us, taking our judgement upon himself. That is how much he loves us. He died for us so we wouldn't have to. Accept his gift.
Watch the Mel Gibson movie The Passion of Christ if you haven't seen it before. I personally can't watch that movie without crying and realizing how much GOD loves us to save all of mankind.
How long will we keep spitting in GOD's face?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Uh huh. Did you not understand the question and the part about "undeniably spectacular?" Just because some lady got preggers and was afraid of being stoned to death for promiscuity doesn't make her baby god.
Good luck with your fantasy. I'm glad it gives you comfort. Too bad it wreaks so much anguish and bloodshed for the rest of us.
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WBraun
climber
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klimmer -- "He died for us so we wouldn't have to."
Meanwhile everyone is still dying ......
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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From my Christian perspective . . .
Wait a minute. Aren't we supposed to be alone here according to the good book?
Where do alien spaceships fit in?
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