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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^ Holy Cow, that gal is onto something! ^^^^^^^^^
!~!~!~!~!~!
Justin, take your time--I look forward to your reply.
Also, sorry if I'm sometimes short in my replies. It's true that I'm frustrated with the way that folks bring up arguments denying the findings of the climate scientists. Many times I've found the authors of the "hit" pieces to be shills propped up by big oil, and little research is done into the source of the claims put forth by the "deniers." Couple that with how the US media handles the subject, and you get a real cause for frustration.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 21, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
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Global Warming Muted in 2000s by Aerosols: Can This be Engineered?
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/184661/20110721/global-warming-aerosols-geo-engineering.htm
For example, if aerosol levels increase like they did in the 2000s, global warming will likely be muted. However, if they decrease like they did in the 1960s, global warming could accelerate.
The buffer effect of aerosol begs an interesting question: could man manipulate global temperatures by artificial techniques like putting aerosols in the atmosphere?
Scientists are already thinking about this possibility. They even have a name for it: geo-engineering.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Jul 21, 2011 - 09:05pm PT
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Ed - you do know that more CO2 in the atmosphere is caused by natural warming. Admitting it would F the funding enjoyed by so many so it has to be
refuted. Doubtle$$ the $imple$t cau$e and effect in thi$ debate.
Your refusal to acknowledge the science that the warming anomaly we are experiencing causes CO2 levels to go up naturally ends the debate.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jul 21, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
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I watched Taleb give a talk on his ideas at the American Geophysical Union meetings in San Francisco last fall. That's an audience you can't bluster with generalities about science, and he didn't try. Most people seemed interested and accepting with respect to Taleb's basic premise that outliers happen and they matter, but when questions came they were skeptical about his claims to be able to predict them.
In 2007 after the book came out, with its broad-brush attack against statistics, The American Statistician ran a special issue of reviews. That too is an audience you can't bluster, and Taleb had to defensively reply that he'd aimed his arguments (against experts) at the general public but now they were being judged by professional standards instead. The statistical critique, like the AGU audience, had no trouble believing that outliers exist but had no patience for the claim that statisticians don't understand this -- there are whole branches of the field devoted to them, which Taleb evidently did not know about. He's since grown wiser in his generalizations, I think.
Westfall and Hilbe wrote a passage that seemed insightful to me at the time, partly because I've been writing about outliers and non-normal distributions myself for more than 20 years:
It seems, therefore, that Taleb has fallen victim to his own curse: having observed a few statisticians with an outlier-avoidance mindset (let us call these statisticians "White Swans"), he then violates Hume's anti-inductive admonishment and assumes that all statisticians are "White Swans." What makes Taleb's error particularly egregious is that his sample of statisticians from which he makes such generalizations is both small and systematically biased!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2011 - 04:03am PT
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I found this article (UPROAR AS BBC MUZZLES CLIMATE CHANGE SCEPTICS) interesting.
It ends with this quote:
“The point Professor Jones makes is that the scientific consensus is that it is caused by human activity. Therefore the BBC’s coverage needs to give less weight to those who oppose this view, and reflect the fact that the debate has moved on to how to deal with climate change.”
I also found this line telling:
On climate change, Professor Jones said there had been a “drizzle of criticism of BBC coverage” arising from “a handful of journalists who have taken it upon themselves to keep disbelief alive”.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
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character assassination can go both ways...
Professor steve jones is a biology expert not a climate scientist, and a bit of a rabble-rouser.
This is my favorite line; Jones described private schools as a "cancer on the education system".[19]
From reading his bio, one get the impression that science and politics are his favorite cocktail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jones_(biologist);
k...I am getting to the picking apart of the quote I promised. Yesterday, I had a busy afternoon.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
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chiloe...you post about Seeing Taleb was interesting.
I got the feeling by the end of the book that when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And he drove it home.
But a hammer is still a useful instrument for when you do indeed find a nail.
(k, I am done with hammer and nail analogies)
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
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I got the feeling by the end of the book that when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And he drove it home.
But a hammer is still a useful instrument for when you do indeed find a nail.
The "White Swans" that Westfall & Hilbe wrote about, the "nail" that Taleb found to hammer, apparently were the stock analysts that he knew during that phase of his career. Taleb then way overplayed his insights about some stock analysts' narrow-mindedness to make accusations against work he knew much less about in economics, social science, statistics, and science.
The book was engagingly written, and much of the general public doesn't understand or like those folks anyway. So they embraced his generalizations as wisdom. Meanwhile statisticians fumed that many of his statements about them were "reckless" and provably false -- e.g., lots of statisticians do study extremes ("robust estimation" is one lively field all about this).
His examples are fun, though, and they start discussion and thinking. I walked out from his talk thinking OK, a plane might crash into my house next week, that's a visit from "Extremistan" that in my daily "Mediocristan" (Taleb's colorful terms) planning I've taken no account of. But did I really not know that before, and ought I to behave differently in light of this insight?
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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The prior distribution p(q) that is used in this calculation is chosen to reflect prior knowledge and uncertainty (either subjective or objective) {This is indicating that there is indeed uncertainty, how much uncertainty is unclear from this first sentence} about plausible {This term indicated that they are operating within a set band of parameters that could be deemed plausible, this is not a definite term} this parameter values, and in fact, is often simply a wide uniform distribution. Such a prior indicates that little is known, a priori, about the parameters of interest except that they are bounded below and above {again if little is known except that they are bounded, it makes me suspicious of their level of certainty}. Even so, the choice of prior bounds can be subjective {and even if they are bounded (everything is bounded), priors by others have been subjective}. In the case of climate sensitivity, a uniform prior with a lower bound of 0°C and an upper bound between 10°C and 20°C has often been used (see Table 9.3) {this is a nice way of saying others before have taken a somewhat blind guess and gone with something simple because a lack of understanding}. However, observable properties of the climate system do not necessarily scale with equilibrium climate sensitivity (Frame et al., 2005) {this statement says that things are not as simple as researchers once assumed}. Imposing a flat prior on an observable property, such as the climate feedback or transient climate response, is equivalent to imposing a highly skewed prior on the equilibrium climate sensitivity, and therefore results in narrower posterior likelihood ranges on the climate sensitivity that exclude very high sensitivities. Alternatively, expert opinion can also be used to construct priors (Forest et al., 2002; 2006). Note, however, that expert opinion may be overconfident (Risbey and Kandlikar, 2002) and if this is the case, the posterior distribution may be too narrow. {the last couple sentences say to me that the models are very sensitive to the prior probability distribution which were oversimplified in the past, and many others have gotten it wrong in the past. they have overestimated based on their limited understanding} Also, the information used to derive the expert prior needs to be independent from the information that is used to estimate the likelihood function. However, prior belief about the climate system tends to be shaped by observations of that system, and thus it is difficult, maybe even impossible, to develop truly independent prior distributions. {This is saying that it is extremely difficult to establish an accurate prior distribution, because it is hugely influenced by the bias of the person determining it. I think the authors are also saying that they too had to guess to some degree in determining how they were going to construct their prior probability distribution...In other words...others were wrong, and we may be too}
I think they are illuminating the challenge of getting the model to accurately mirror what occurs in real life. And they are trying to be as honest and candid about it. I was impressed with their candor regarding their lack of certainty. But it also leads me to believe that they are guessing , and when their model leaves expectable bounds, their forcing functions which handle aerosols are going to be an even less of a knowledgeable guess. Maybe I am way off base, but that is how I parse their words.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
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Professor steve jones is a biology expert not a climate scientist, and a bit of a rabble-rouser. -- justin01
Justin, apparently you missed this part of the article:
The report was partly based on an independent review of [the BBC] coverage by Steve Jones, Professor of Genetics at University College, London.
You see, Jones did an independent review of the material covered by BBC, of which climate change was just one of the topics at which he looked. He was not trying to interpret the work on climate scientists, but rather look at the how BBC covered topics that he was reviewing.
That Jones may be a rabble-rouse has nothing to do with his conclusions. If you have trouble with the method in which he came to those conclusions, then you should address that, and not the messenger.
justin01, I'm not convinced you really looked at the article. This I gather from the remarks you made--they did not make sense in the context of the article. But it is nice that you keep trying.
Lastly, as you might imagine, I don't fully agree with your assessment in your newly highlighted AR4 quote. To me it seems like you are grasping at straws and are trying to find flaws with the scientific method that has been vetted by hundreds, if not thousands, of scientists.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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Chiloe,
I did not find Taleb’s railings against financial analysts to be nearly as interesting as just his general form of skepticism. It was useful to think about the various fallacies that we our minds do to make sense of the world. That has nothing to do with statistics directly. In total I take his book to be rambling thoughts about how we should think. There is no science to be derived from it. The intent is to broaden your thinking horizon, and for me at least, it did an excellent job at that.
His point about the narrative fallacies and how we weave a story together using unrelated events to shape our memory about the past. How are memory of the past changes as we acquire more experience. I also liked his points about extremism vs. mediocristan, they may be well understood by many statisticians practicing in this field (there is nothing new under the sun). For me though, they were powerful distinctions to make, which in hindsight seemed obvious (another fallacy). I also enjoyed his railing against experts in general, I personally have a deep irreverence for the intelligencia (maybe that is why I have a hard time with AGW). Especially his point about the uselessness of modern philosophers (they should be thinking about things that are useful to mankind and themselves, not arguing over esoteric and utterly useless points).
There was another portion (at least I think Taleb wrote about this), which talked about how jargon is used as an insularly defense mechanism. It is used as a way of delineating studies into clubs that have a hierarchical structure. It is nearly always unintentional, but it has a deleterious effect on the breath of understanding and auditing by outsiders.
I don’t know if you like thinking books on various subjects, but one that I thoroughly enjoyed was called The Secrets of Consulting, by Weinberg. It also changed the way I thought about various things, and it is filled with similar random stories and strange titled maxims. I am not a consultant btw, but it was highly recommended to me. Great Book.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
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K-man,
I did read the article, he was the basis of the article no. Without him and his opinion there would be no article. I was mostly having fun with it, because the knee jerk thing to do here, it seems, is first look into the background of the author of any article instead of dealing with the content.
I personally do not find media analysis to ever be “independent” People call Fox new right and find the NYT impartial, and people find Fox impartial and the NYT left leaning…I don’t much care. Its not important.
On the other subject, I did not expect you to agree with my assessment and I figured no matter how I put it, we would disagree on it. Because we can read into that passage what we already think about the subject. It was a bit of a fool’s errand, but one that I had to carry out, because I was called out. Further making it futile in my mind, it is just a very small part of the science of global warming. It is not that big a deal, even if I chopped down that one tree, there would still be a forest. The question is not do we understand aerosol forcing well enough. The question is does our knowledge of each tree and organism (all climactic forces) that we can name amount to a solid understanding of the ecosystem as a whole. Is our knowledge of how all those organisms in the forest interact good enough to understand what happens when one thing changes?
I think we would answer that last question differently.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2011 - 03:03pm PT
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Justin,
Fair enough.
More:
I did read the article, he was the basis of the article no? -- justin01
Actually no, he wasn't the basis for the article.
From the article: "In a report by its governing body, the BBC Trust ... The report was partly based on an independent review of coverage by Steve Jones ..." The report being that the BBC didn't give equal coverage to the "other side" of the several stories.
Jones' research looked into what the other side of the story was, and who was pushing for it to be given a fair outing. What he found WRT climate change was that it was a small group (a "drizzle"), and, according to the article, "he found no evidence of bias in BBC output, he suggested where there is a 'scientific consensus' it should not hunt out opponents purely to balance the story."
To put it another way, he found there is scientific consensus that climate change is due to human activity, and that to report otherwise would be to "hunt out" opposing points of view solely to "balance the story."
I believe the next couple of years will hush the "deniers" absolutely. If the climate doesn't prove me right, I'll rejoice.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Jul 22, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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I revert back to my previous comment...
I, personally, do not find media analysis to ever be “independent.” People call Fox news right leaning and find the NYT impartial, and people find Fox impartial and the NYT left leaning…I don’t much care. Its not important.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
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Dr F - we're all laughing at how far you put your foot into your mouth this time.
check this
...31,487 American scientists have signed this petition,
including 9,029 with PhDs
http://www.petitionproject.com/
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
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Corniss honey, you have been HAD. Do you EVER fact check anything, dip wad?
That petition is a fraud with the "signatures" obtained fraudulently, and even has its own "Snopes" debunking.
The National Academy of Sciences has objected strenuously to the format of the paper, on the grounds that the Petition Project deliberately used the NAS Proceedings format to create the impression that the NAS was involved. However, the Proceedings format has headers and footers clearly identifying the publication; the circulated paper contained no suggestion at all that it was associated with the NAS.
http://www.energyadvocate.com/petiproj.htm
And here it is on Snopes:http://www.energyadvocate.com/petiproj.htm
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 06:24pm PT
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LOL.
His Fraudar is badly askew.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Jul 22, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
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Norton - being angry at yourself is understandable for being deceived by the
evil AGW scam. Come back to the light. All it takes is some courage.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 22, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
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corniss cracks me up. Always reminds me of the Seinfeld episode "the opposite" when George does the opposite of all his instincts and his life is better. Everything corniss says makes complete sense if you just take it as the opposite of what he says. Brilliant!
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