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Licky
Mountain climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2016 - 11:41pm PT
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I can't count the times I have offered to meet with sid/mo to hear his stories. His latest nomicor has left him open to email I posted to him that I was open to getting together and giving him his 15 minutes. Instead of accepting he resorts to the same old rhetoric. He'd rather take the loud road and bash what he has no clue about.
Come on sidly...step up to the plate, meet me and tell me your story. I promise you that I'll use it. How can it get any better?
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Licky wrote:
How can it get any better? If it were published?
Okay, right - crazy idea; would spoil a great thread. Never mind.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 19, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
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I recently found a crash site in a remote off trail area 5 miles north of Kennedy Meadows. I was looking for information about the crash, one crash is listed at this website, it is listed as a BT-13 located just west of Haiwee (southern Sierra), with no other info.
In the process of looking I found Licky's plane online at this website listed as a Lockheed P-1 Ventura. I was under the belief that Licky's plane was a Howard 500. Although the Howard 500 was a new aircraft, it was a design based on the fuselage jigs from the Lodestar and Ventura so I guess they used the Ventura designation. The Howard 500 became a reality after a Mexican business asked Dee Howard to build a plane that would fly non-stop from Mexico City to New York.
The crash I found was from a large plane with an 8 cylinder I presume opposed configuration, the engine block was smashed. Definitely not a radial engine, which is what the BT-13 had. There was some evidence of military type zinc chromate on some pieces so I think it might be military. It had been there a long time and only an idiot would take a trip through that area. I find reference to an Air Force database of crash sites but none of the links worked
Any ideas on how to ID this plane
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 19, 2016 - 06:19pm PT
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Jon, that engine is unlikely to be in a military plane unless it was used to haul brass around.
That is a big engine for that type so it can't be too common of a civvy job. Off hand my
built-in data base is coming up empty. I'd be interested to see more picks. There is no
shortage of wreck hunters, as a cursory web search will show. You could also PM our own
'vegasclimber' as he is quite into that.
ps
that last pic almost looks like a machine gun but not quite. I can't imagine what part of a
plane it might be.
pps
I just ran through Wiki's list of all US military aircraft and I didn't see one that I thought would
have an 8 cyl horizontally opposed engine, and I assume this was a twin, right? This is
quite intriguing. In yer first pick I'm not seeing what looks an 8 cyl opposed.
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Blakey
Trad climber
Sierra Vista
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Jun 20, 2016 - 11:51am PT
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That is surely the left sideplate of a 50 cal.....
Steve
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 20, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
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Thanks, Steve, I thought it looked like one but I have no experience with
them- 3"-50 was the smallest I handled. :-)
So that is what I thought it might be - the swivel mount for firing out
the side like on a B-17. So it must be something from the 30's or 40's
(at the latest) and it must be an 'A' or a 'B' class plane but I will have
to go back and scour that list for something that didn't have radials.
edit:
I just went through another list with pics and I couldn't find a single
non-radial. Unless the pic is fooling us, and it is a radial, we got a
real mystery on our hands.
edit2:
The Consolidated P-30 from mid-30's had a V-12 engine but those pics don't look it.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
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^Where's the BEEF ... er ... WEED??
don't give up on stem cells. Gordie Howe, now around 88 uses 'em and swears by their effectivity.
Like they say though, nothing lasts forever.
Reportedly his only acknowledged regret in life was not being able to read the book, now working titled 1977 (it worked for that war film and come to think of it George Orwell).
RIP Gordie.
Gordie Howe,legenda jo eläessään.Teki maaleja löi turpaan ja syötteli.
NHL: Jääkiekkolegenda Gordie Howe sai vakavan sairaskohtauksen - NHL - Ilta-Sanomat
Nyt 86-vuotias veteraani taistelee elämästään.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 20, 2016 - 07:55pm PT
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They made multi-row radials, real beasts. however the cylinders were staggered in a spiral pattern. Could have been a V-12 which I believe they used
Here is a better picture, I thought this was an actuator, could it be a gun?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
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Jon, that mega radial must have been a one off as I believe the biggest production model
was the four row 28 cyl used in the B-29. Your pic only shows 4 jugs. Did you actually
count them or really determine the configuration?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
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I just snapped a few pictures without really thinking about getting into any detail, figured I would just find the full story on the internet. You can see three of the cylinders are intact, the fourth is broken off. Could have been a longer row than four, the force of impact was tremendous and sheared the manifolds off.
I might have to go back up in the fall when it cools off. There could be more wreckage further up the hill. It was four pm and I still had to get across the river and up the other side.
http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=852341&page=all
here is a link about that large radial. I love radials. I get goosebumps when I hear one. I learned to fly in a Stearman with a 220 continental. Blew a quart of oil down the belly every hour. I was stationed in Japan where they had the last active duty DC-3 (C-47). They would fire them up and fly one to Korea each week in the late 70s. Story was the had too many hours on the airframes to return to CONUS.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:08pm PT
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Jon, a quick perusal of yer link gives me no reason to doubt my assertion that that engine
never flew in a production airframe, especially as somebody there asserted it had 8 cylinders
per row. Unless I am grossly mistaken ALL radials have odd numbers of jugs with 5 or 7
being the usual. I used to know why but it escapes me just now but I seem to recall that the
firing order requires it so as not to shake itself to bits.
Lucky you learning in a Stearman! Anything after that was easy!
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 21, 2016 - 12:43am PT
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There was a crash of a TWA DC2 just uphill from Lower Merced Pass Lake in 1938 on Buena Vista Crest. Maybe a mile away.
DC2's had Wright Radial engines. 9 cylinder.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Yosemite_TWA_crash
Four stroke radials had an odd number of cylinders to maintain the every other cylinder firing order. Two stroke radials had even numbers of cylinders.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 21, 2016 - 09:26am PT
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Jon, my bro-in-law* replied:
"I don't know enough except the engine looks rather small, if you looks at
the shoe in comparison to the cylinders and piston visible. I doubt it is
over 300 horsepower. It looks liquid cooled.
The mechanism might be associated with a landing gear. There really isn't
much to see. Too bad there weren't more photos."
*ATP w/25,000 hrs, Cert A&P
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 21, 2016 - 11:51am PT
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The 2 stroke rotary makes a lot of sense because there is no oil sump to deal with.
the engine looks rather small
of course it looks small to an ATP! Looks big to me. I am pretty sure it is air cooled because the cylinders are wrapped in tin. The early engines were water cooled but they got away from that pretty quick. Although more recently Mooney built a Porsche equipped plane that was water cooled. Why add the weight and complexity of water cooling when you have plenty of air to go around.
In the early days of aviation there was a radial engine in which the crankshaft was fixed and the cylinders spun. Major gyroscopic precession issues.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Jun 21, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
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I don't think that engine can be a radial; there is no way for cooling air to get around the heads. It looks like a fabricated block with water cooling jacket added. You can clearly see the intake ports and overhead valves. Also, with a radial the cylinders would have to be staggered if it was multi-row and if a single row the configuration doesn't match a radial at all. Also, as someone above pointed out, radials have to have an odd number of cylinders and a master cylinder that the other pistons hang on.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 21, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
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Wino, we know it isn't a radial. What we don't know is everything else! ;-)
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Jun 21, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
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Is it possibly this?
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Marmot1
Mountain climber
A-town,ca
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Jun 21, 2016 - 02:24pm PT
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Missing P-40 WWII aircraft remains a mountain mystery. On Oct. 24, 1941,they started their training mission from March Army Airfield in Southern California to McClellan Field in Sacramento.
Five of these aircraft were lost the first day of that mission.
The first to experience engine problems was Lt. John Pease and he bailed out 15 miles north of Lake Isabella near Wild Rose Canyon. Lt. Pease survived and his P40 was recovered.
Lt. W.H. Burrell's bird crashed north of Bass Lake at Gray's Mountain to which a memorial monument was placed next to the only remaining artifact the engine.
Two others are located in the Sequoia National Forest area. Lt. Jack C. West crashed just west of the Roaring River Ranger Station and survived. Some debris still remains at that location.
Lt. Richard N. Long crashed and wasn't discovered until 1959 southwest of South Guard Lake at 11,200 feet, to which a memorial stone was placed. Some debris still remains at that location.
The fifth bird has never been located, even though many professional wreck hunters searched the Sequoia National Forest area, but never found a clue of its whereabouts.
The pilot, Lt. Leonard C. Lydon, bailed out and survived, but the location of the wreckage remains a mystery today.
Looks like you found the missing P-40 based on your pic of the damaged engine. The bellows shaped cylinder water jacket matches the Allison v12 engine.
Also the plane was equipped with .50cal guns matching your pics.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 21, 2016 - 02:54pm PT
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of course that sort of linkage was used on just about everything
great find Marmot, I will have to read up on that story, thanks
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