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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 23, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
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Thanks, John!
Here's Tom on Excalibur as he describes above:
Pouring coffee from Dr. Piton's Shagadelic Big Wall Coffee Press.
Note array of Valley Giants on the right - the originals, tried and tested.
So have a look at Tom's ledge. He made this ledge, for our ascent of Excalibur, along with all the Valley Giants. They all worked.
Tom's ledge is an extreme example of what I call an "asymmetric hang". While Tom's ledge is cantilevered outwards, this same type of hang happens typically when belay bolts are too close together. Imagine Tom's ledge rotated plus 90 degrees, so the long side is against the wall as per usual. You want your ledge and your pigs side by side, but the horizontal array of anchors is too narrow.
Hence, you have to shorten up the straps on the inside against the pig, and lengthen out the straps on the outside.
Up until now, all ledges - except Fish - were totally inadequate at asymmetric hangs.
I pointed out this design flaw in ledges to Deucey, and made suggestions as to how to correct it so that the new D4 could hang asymmetrically, like Tom's.
Deucey's ledge design works, too.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
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Good idea--we might just do that. We save some weight with just one wall side but even when never set up against the wall, the air side can get beaten up over time, so that might be the go. That's feedback we also got from John V. (who recently used the D4 ledge on Zodiac and created our first video review!).
Keep the good feedback coming, but keep in mind that our objective is to keep the total weight even for the burly commercial versions less than mid seven kilo range max.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 23, 2017 - 07:48pm PT
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Great beta Pete, how about some more kissing pics;)
Please.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 11:13pm PT
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Hi Pete- Just saw your picture, for some reason it didn't come up when I last posted.
Cool picture. Did Tom ever try sleeping with the ledge in that configuration? I ask because I once designed a triangular folding ledge where the climbers slept head to wall and toes to air. But it didn't work well because there was an odd phenomena which I would call "wall side edge creep". I think because the center of balance is farther rom the point of suspension (and I suppose the placement of the middle strap), the wall side tube would creep up though the night, in effect tilting the air side of the ledge down, which would get worse as it progressed. It didn't really happen with the one-person design, but somehow with two people shifting weight it would tend to happen more readily.
It was weird, it would set up fine, but over time would "wall side edge creep". I felt the problem could be solved by tweaking the placement of the suspension points, or perhaps going with a four-point suspension, but never really pursued it further after my design contract ended prematurely after 9/11.
Still curious about that one.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 24, 2017 - 09:34am PT
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I think Blue is referring to the shagadelic Anita514....
Yes, Tom used to sleep in his ledge that way. I don't remember him tipping over forward, so somehow he addressed the Wall Side Creep.
Ha. Wall Side Creep has happened to me once or twice on my Fish ledge, when I clipped heavy bags of beer to the underside daisy on the air side of the ledge!
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Apr 30, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
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Hobby ledge is almost done, just needs webbing rash guard on the wall side D4 style 4 point suspension fins, and for the bungie cord to get put in.
Bed tensioning is an 8:1 with lots of spreading of tension along the width of the bed. The tension up on the ends of the ballistics is in-between the load spreading triangles, so in all the bed tension is spread across 9 point along the end of the bed, not just 3 as with the D4. I have had this design thought for several years, so it was nice to finally make it for real.
Poles are from Duece's hybrid diameter/thickness innovation, starting from his sharing of a block corner design with 10 piece hybrid poles. Mine are a re-calculated for 4" overlap, and shorter side poles due to placing the block corners on the short side instead of the side poles, but otherwise his design.
Center fin is a 2 point affair. The fabric weave is on a 45 angle such that the lines of tension are akin to two overlapping cable-stay bridge spans.
Overall it had a lot fewer foul ups than any of my usual projects. I had more of collision between the bed tensioners and the fin than is ideal, each got sketched out independently. Next time...
Jump-up-and-down testing is planned for after the kid's nap time.
Folding up and stowing works nice too. End poles break down and sit in the bed, then each end folds once more into the center so the whole thing can get rolled up in the straps.
Edit: Survives jump testing, and having the whole family pile into it. Pretty happy with how it turned out.
Edit 2: Added much needed attributions. Thanks for the cool ideas and inspiration Duece!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2017 - 11:06am PT
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Looks cool.
Hey Moof, I'd like to ask that if you use some of my D4 innovations, if you could reference them. I see in this case you are going for the 4/8 equalising suspension fins--it would be great if you could just add a note when you show the design that the fins are an original D4 concept.
I do like the fact that better ledges are getting created (that's always been my goal)), though I do cringe when a company uses my ideas wholesale and neglects to reference the source--in other words, just because I am sharing the ideas does not mean that I approve their use without reference. Kind of like a scientific paper, rather that a patent, I suppose, with the goal to advance climbing endeavors.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Attribution added. I have ZERO intent of doing anything commercial, but just the same you are absolutely right that your ideas and inventions should be marked as such. My 3 main tweaks/changes are the 2 point center fin, parabola cut of the D4 4 point fins, and the mechanical advantage bed tensioning system.
By the way, I used 2 layers of center fin material (36" square folded on the diagonal). I sewed them together at the strap, and the bottom 6". The result is 3 openings into the center cavity where headlamps, hats, and other trinkets can get stowed at night. On the ground with the family piled in I found it easy to get my hand in, and stuff stays where you shove it.
Real testing happens in just over 2 weeks when we throw ourselves at NA Wall.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
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Cool idea on the stow pockets, Moof. People are always asking for cup holders and stuff, and I cringe whenever having to add weight for convienience as survival trumps in my book, and light is right for survival.
But I have also been looking for a way to stow the center support fin straps when setting up and taking down the ledge, as I find it much easier if these are fully disconnected from the suspension, but then they dangle around--since they are just straps with nothing on the ends, they don't get tangled or anything, but they are a distraction, especially when windy.
Mind if we use this concept? Based on your idea idea of hollow shark fins, I initially envision just a seam taped slit big enough to reach a hand into. I'll make a proto later today. Have to think about strength aspect...
By the way, the reason i believe very important to either have no fin or a detachable fin in the center of the ledge (as in the current D4) is for when cooking with a hanging stove--you really don't want any fabric anywhere near a stove, of course. Important for expedition portaledges.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Go for it, copy anything you want. I took a 36"x36" square, folded it on the diagonal, removed a ~13" radius pie wedge from the apex, and seam taped the perimeter (I hate seam tape by the way...). The strap is detachable, for the reasons you state, but also you want to be able to fully drop the fin when not sleeping period. I have it sandwiched inside the two layers and sewn with a big box-X. You could add an elastic loop on the base of the fin strap to tuck a folded up strap into for almost no weight if you wanted, but I personally think letting it fly is just fine.
I don't sew mine into a bed-taco like you are doing, just 1" thin webbing on the back as reinforcement, and sew the fin onto the bed (has seam tape on the fin fold too). I'll probably die.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
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yer gonna die!
no, looks ok, as the shark fins aren't really supporting the ledge.
Actually, turns out Barry has a idea from one of his other products we might try first for the cup/holder/stash pocket. Seems cool the way you are doing it, though! Also would like to hear more about your bed tensioner system--something different than the ubiquitous A5 tensioner system! Wondering if you could post a video of setup. cheers
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John Mac
Trad climber
Breckenridge, CO
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It just keeps on getting better...
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Duece,
I'll try and get a setup video this weekend, probably no sooner than Sunday. I am scrambling to get ready for a trip in 2 weeks (!) among other life craziness, so no promises. I'll have to figure out that whole uploading to youtube thing from my phone.
I am glad I scratched the itch on the bed tensioner, probably not worth the extra effort/weight but it has been gnawing at me for probably 5+ years. I have always cringed at how much weight is being held by the center plastic buckle(s) on your designs if a couple guys are stomping around at a belay, though you have not had any failures, nor have I heard of failures on BD Cabana's so it is likely unfounded. Reality is that most of the force is held by the short direction of the bed, not the long ways, but still, high tension on plastic buckles, eww.
One old bed I did a few years back used Metolius crash pad buckles that they sold as replacements, so no threading, just hook and cinch (yes, I tried to optimize the hell out of 10 seconds a day on the wall, talk about local sub-optimization). I'll take pics of that shortly, it was another idea that was far better in my head than reality.
There is a lot of friction in my scheme, so you can't just cinch it up from one side, which is why I put buckles on both sides. Using the strand that is one zig-zag in to yard against makes it cinch up evenly. It is actually easy to get too much tension, which makes the bed taco like crazy (first world problem?). I don't like how the buckles in the corner pucker up the ballistics in funny ways, as they are being pulled inwards with nothing to counter-act, so I plan on doing some rework to tweak things a little bit.
If I did it again I would not use the load spreading pie-wedges, but just zig-zagged 3/4" webbing to the same effect with less labor/weight, and less interference with my center fin.
Overall I do like having the tensioner on one end only. Of course, the geometry only works out in my favor because of the corner blocks which makes for nice 25.5" end pieces when broken in half, while your design needs the end poles to be freed up to fold up so nicely since end pole only have to be ~30" in total. If I ordered a pipe bender my wife would probably kick me out of the house, so corner blocks it is for me.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2017 - 02:41pm PT
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Moof, really like the way you are trying new things and evolving your design--super cool. Fun stuff!
We are making a lot of significant improvements to the D4 this month, some really innovative aspects of the fly are upcoming; once the dust settles, I will share them as well.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
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Any comments/ideas/initial impressions?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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May 23, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
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One of your Facebook pictures shows some sort of funky connector on the end of one of the end poles. What sort of voodoo is going on there? I am intrigued. Does it slide and lock to make getting the last pole into place more easy?
Regarding the fly, looks very nice. I have a little bit of a hard time getting excited however, as I've only had to deploy a ledge fly 3 nights on a about a dozen walls (and one of those was just for bivying at the top where I would have been OK in just a bivy sack). If my needs were more expedition oriented I'd be all over it, but for most Yosemite applications I want a fly for insurance with the minimum of frills beyond not dying in a storm, so the extra zipper, while way cool, feels a little counter to the notion of simplicity and lightweight design you originally set forth for this project.
I am in the minority, however. BD even stopped selling their "Simple" fly, and only sells their "Expedition" one with the two doors and fully enclosed design. I am guessing it was due to low sales of the no-frills version I think most buyers default to clicking every option box and don't equate the extra crap with extra weight/volume.
Jim, the bend is the by-product of the 4 point suspension. If the suspension triangles were further out, and the camera level with the ground it would indeed bend downward, bring them close in and the canteleivered ends would further make the center bow upwards.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2017 - 05:32pm PT
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Moof, for my original D4 frame design, I included a little plastic tube "helper" so the end tubes stay in place during assembly even when not fully inserted. For the prototypes, this was simply a short section of vinyl tubing, which I was concerned about in cold weather, but Marek Regonowicz used it up in Baffin in -60F temps, and loved the way it helped assembly. He found full deployment even with our first generation fly less than 10 minutes, solo, sometimes in tricky situations.
I am not sure I need the helpers anymore with my latest frame system, but it helps with the "traditional" system with dangling end poles.
Regarding the camber of the ledge, there is a little flex when loaded, that is what you are seeing. Probably the camera makes it look more--the flex is very minimal with the new D4 hybrid diameter frame design.
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