Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 18, 2011 - 08:54pm PT
Yes, that is correct.

Just like I could do your job when you were in the service, Chief, unless I was fully trained to do your job, no matter how many years it might take.

You are entitled to your opinion, but recognize that your opinion is not based on substantiated facts from credible tested sources.

My opinion on many many things that I have only rudimentary surface knowledge about is not credible enough, so I yield to my medical doctor, or my auto mechanic, etc etc

And I do NOT consider my lack in in-depth knowledge to be a reflection upon my personally.


edit: just like I could NOT do your job
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2011 - 09:04pm PT
The Chief, I think saying, "unless one can accurately read, ingest and then understand all the scientific papers on this issue, [one is] just plain ignorant and totally naive of the whole thing" is going a bit overboard.

You have read a lot on the subject, and with that you know a lot about it. You are not "totally naive" and you have reasons to have your opinions about it. Which is fine and expected.

And I think it's healthy to raise questions, state what you believe, and continue to read and learn.

That said, when experts in the field correct you on your misconceptions, it's time to stand up and listen. Ed has done us all a great service by being patient and carefully explaining things in layman's terms. Much like some of the other experts that have joined this discussion.

I learned from a friend that when you go to see a doctor, ask questions. He/she won't bother to detail many of the things they know because they are either too busy or figure you're not interested. For this reason, I think it's great that you've pushed as hard as you have with your beliefs--look at all the in-depth info it's surfaced.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
"as a policy decision, the elected government decides, the Executive branch and the Legislative branch are both involved, and both of those bodies are representatives of the people

the intelligence, however, is a part of the Executive branch whose mission is to supply information to the policy makers"


Now Ed is talking about a different Universe, for sure.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 18, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
Yes, Chief you are correct.

99.9999% of the people on earth could not do YOUR job, Chief.

And YES, 99.99% of people on earth are NOT educated, trained many years, accredited, in the Scientific Method.

As such, they can have their opinion, however it carries virtually no credibility unless it is peer reviewed, tested, and totally examined by like field accredited experts.

That IS correct.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
Chief, this is NOT a United States "initiative", as you seem to assume.

Thus, the US is NOT going to demand that other nations "go along".

This is an international examination, with scientists all over the world.

These scientists can only present their findings to the international body established to examine the legitimacy of such findings.

Where do you extrapolate that the United States has the authority to set laws that all
nations will have to follow, or somehow or else?

We are a LONG LONG way from any kind of agreement on what to, or what NOT, to do.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
That's not the scientists' job.

Ya'll act as if all this data will motivate the entire world's govt's to come to a screaching, stop their daily economic struggles, and apply every last penny they have to fix this.

Yeah, every last penny. Right

Blow harder Chief, blow harder.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:17pm PT

You tell the folks that are dependent on their monthly SS or Medicare check that they will no longer be getting one so the US Govt can start funding all these "fix the AGW" programs.


Now who's buying into hysteria?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
1940 movie "Reefer Madness' revisited now in 2011.

If you smoke one reefer, you WILL be a heroin addict.

From this extremist logic, the Chief extrapolates:

If the US defaults on its debt and the SS checks don't go out, then FOR SURE it follows that politicians will be HANGED, and BILLIONS of dollars will somehow be necessary to be spent.


Chief, that is contorted logic.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:27pm PT
Cut the crap, Chief.

You know damn well that the US treasury has already taken in over two TRILLION in income tax this year, and the interest to the US bondholders is only 250 billion.

We can EASILY pay the bond holders, you know this from your in-depth knowledge of
the cash flow of US treasury.

Because no way would you just make up a non fact based scenario to sell fear, would you?
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Jul 18, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
Stop the presses! Check the snow falling in Australia!
And it can't hurt to have a nice forecaster telling the tale.
How much is a ticket to AUS?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCYdVGKFPLI&feature=youtu.be&a
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:13am PT
Chief - I've got a hunch the cut's will be organ transplants and hospital
bed occupancy rates. That's where the big money goes.

Woe to the transplant surgeons falling on hard times.

BTW - if global warming was true it would be raining and not
snowing in Aus.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:15am PT
Yeah Corniss...put another shrimp on the barbie numbskull...!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:17am PT
The Chief....why do you keep pretending you kow anything about AGW...You've spent most of your life at sea...on water...not on land where weather happens...knock it off...don't make me drive down to bishop...
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:20am PT
That's right Mr Putrefaction. Your ilk now call it climate disruption.
Another of your weasel terms for weather.

Lets review again how much of your disposable income are you willing to give to Climate Anti-disruptionists to fix the weather?

None?
All?
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:36am PT
Dianne told us so it must be true.

Wednesday, March 30, 2011
Global Warming Alarmist Senator Gets Schooled


Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) in February 2005:


"Global warming will only tighten water supplies further. Essentially,
warmer weather will mean more rain and less snow. This will reduce our
snow pack, meaning that there is less water trapped and available in
spring runoff. Consider a recent report on California water and global
warming: The report found that Global Warming could shrink the State's
snow pack by an amount greater than the annual water consumption of
Southern California's 16 million people."



Just six years later from the AP on March 22, 2011:



Near-record Sierra snow good news to parched California. More than 61 feet
of snow has fallen in the Sierra high country so far this season, second
only to the 1950-51 season when a total of 65 feet fell, according to
records kept by the California Department of Transportation. While spring
has arrived, the Sierra typically gets some snow in April, bringing the
prospect of an all-time record. "I'm out plowing driveways, and we can't
even find the houses," said Norm Sayler, who used to run Donner Ski Ranch
along Interstate 80 and now operates a snow-plowing business near the top
of Donner Summit. "I've been up here since 1954, and personally this has
been the toughest winter I've ever had here."

Posted by Yossarian at 11:09 AM

http://www.dailybrisk.com/2011/03/global-warming-alarmist-senator-gets.html

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2011 - 02:00am PT
Oh good, if they cut the AWG funding, the problem will just go away!
That's because the problem is obviously an economic problem. Like, if we had enough money, there would be no AWG to begin with.

Brilliant solution!!




CC, you from the shallow end of the gene poll, ain't cha?





{I've got fungus in my bathroom that that has more reasoning power than these blokes...}
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 19, 2011 - 02:53am PT
Actually we are in a tepid recovery not a recession.

It's a question of how do we spend or invest our money. I think the first thing we should be doing about AGW is investing in alternative energy and transport. Whatever nation makes the most progress there will be the ones making money down the line instead of it going to the middle east where they are just lucky to be sitting on so much oil.
justin01

Trad climber
sacramento
Jul 19, 2011 - 03:40am PT
I have not gotten mired in the specifics of this debate, because I think the are missing the forest for the trees.

I think that the aim of their study is good, and I support continued research. As the study builds and understanding grows, I think I could joint the AGW crowd. But to date, I have been very underwhelmed by their proof.

I am going to do something that I do not like to do, but I feel that I need to make an exception for this piece. I am doing such, because it nails exactly how I feel about the entire subject.


In this week’s The Week That Was, Ken Haapala, Executive Vice President of the Science and Environmental Policy Project, offers a concise explanation of why global alarmism, as represented by the United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, is not science:

In an interesting opinion piece in The New York Times entitled “On Experts and Global Warming,” Gary Gutting, Professor of Philosophy at the University of Notre Dame, argues that the non-experts must accept the findings of the expert authorities in climate science. Though not named, no doubt the expert climate authorities are the members of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), particularly as expressed in the Summary for Policymakers (SPM) of the Fourth Assessment Report (AR4).

Unfortunately, the good professor fails to recognize the tremendous change in thinking that came about through the development of natural philosophy – scientific philosophy. Under scientific philosophy, the pronouncements of climate authorities are not as important as how and why they acquired their claimed knowledge. Did they adhere to the principles of acquiring scientific knowledge? If the climate authorities did not, then anyone familiar with scientific principles is perfectly capable of challenging these experts, even though the challenger is not, necessarily, an expert in climate science.

There are many glaring scientific defects in AR4, particularly in the SPM. Among these defects are the following:

* Ignoring scientific data that is contrary to the central conclusions.

* Failure to rigorously test hypotheses using physical observations.

* Assuming results are evidence of cause.

* Assuming a poor correlation is evidence of cause.

* Assuming a thorough knowledge of the climate system.

* Assuming that calculations involving variables with a low level of understanding can produce results embodying a high level of understanding.

* Assuming projections from unverified models are scientific knowledge.

The SPM focuses only on the past fifty years – not carefully defined. Thus, it ignores a vast body of scientific evidence that prior warm periods equal to or greater than the current period existed and that the historical warm periods are unrelated to atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2). The main body of the AR4 explains these omissions by claiming the past warm periods were not global. Yet, according to the most comprehensive, reliable data available, satellite data, the current warm period is not global. It is concentrated in the northern part of the Northern Hemisphere, above 35 deg N.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and laboratory experiments show that a doubling of CO2, absent of feedbacks, will increase temperatures by about 1.2 deg C. The SPM assumes positive feedbacks amplify this small warming. Yet, nowhere in AR4 are these positive feedbacks tested against physical observations as required by the critical step of hypothesis testing. Tests by others demonstrate that the assumptions fail when tested against the proper alternative hypothesis – the null hypothesis. Such testing is the foundation of scientific knowledge.

There is little question warming occurred in the 20th century and the results of warming can be observed. However, these results do not establish cause.

During the 20th century, both CO2 and temperatures increased, but not necessarily together. The correlation is poor. For several multi-decadal periods during the 20th century temperatures fell while CO2 increased.

In the SPM, only one natural variation is considered – solar irradiation. Other influences of the sun and the influence of ocean oscillations are ignored.

An appendix to the main body of the AR4 gives the levels of understanding for sixteen variables considered to influence temperatures (many important variables are not considered). The levels of understanding for five of these influences are rated as very low. The levels of understanding for ten for the remaining eleven are rated as low to medium. Yet the SPM states a high level of confidence in results of its work. One cannot have high confidence in the results, when starting with a poor understanding of critical variables.

The models have never been verified, thus are interesting artifacts, not knowledge.

Contrary to the statements of Professor Gutting, anyone understanding the principles establishing physical sciences has a solid philosophical basis for challenging the work of the experts of the IPCC.
From Ken Haapala

feel free to impugn his motives...
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 19, 2011 - 10:19am PT
By the way, anyone got any ideas what to do with all them millions and millions of toxic batteries that are driving all them Hybrids and Elect cars when they are cooked and no longer any good?

Good point. We're just Americans. We could never come up with the know-how to find a solution to that problem. We'd best just keep funneling money and blood to the oil companies and the middle-east sheiks. Maybe someday some other people in Europe or Asia will figure out something better and help us.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 19, 2011 - 10:41am PT
justin--good post, no need to apologize for posting a short cut-and-paste, it's got more intellectual content than 99% of the alarmists' drivel.
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