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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
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John posted Those are probably the Democrats who support Trump.
You keep intentionally omitting that most of the Democrats who support Trump otherwise vote like Republicans.
John posted am I the only one who finds it significant that perhaps our most unrepentant partisan Democrat on this forum finds religious freedom the greatest threat to the contemporary United States?
What is significant is that a relatively moderate Republican has been convinced that "religious freedom" means "permission to discriminate and ostracize."
Craig posted The biggest threat to America now is these Religious Freedom laws being imposed in Red States.
This is a fairly absurd statement. I'm pretty sure that social laws so cartoonishly bad that they are opposed even by national sports leagues and fortune 500 companies are not a grave threat to our country. They reflect odious and regressive views, but they are loudly opposed by huge portions of our country. There are plenty of laws/policies that go largely unopposed that are depriving people of life, liberty and property beyond wedding cakes.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 11, 2016 - 01:02pm PT
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What is significant is that a relatively moderate Republican has been convinced that "religious freedom" means "permission to discriminate and ostracize."
Not surprisingly, we see these laws differently. I have no problem with public accommodation sorts of laws in general, but when one is renting their own residence, to me at least, the right to privacy that undergirds, e.g. Roe v. Wade, takes precedence over public accommodations. Similarly, when a business includes exercise of artistic discretion, e.g. decorating a wedding cake with a particular message, freedom of speech (include freedom not to be compelled to write messages against one's conscience) takes precedence over public accommodations.
That's the nature of those protections. Again, if the actions being protected were inoffensive, they would need no protection. Because we take offense when people exercise rights, recognized as fundamental, in ways we dislike, and particularly regarding the first enumerated right in the First Amendment, laws protecting those rights rest on solid constitutional and legal grounds.
John
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 11, 2016 - 01:20pm PT
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Similarly, when a business includes exercise of artistic discretion, e.g. decorating a wedding cake with a particular message, freedom of speech (include freedom not to be compelled to write messages against one's conscience) takes precedence over public accommodations.
Not sure I understand what you're saying, but I think it is that you believe the wedding cake bakers should have the right to refuse to serve gays.
If that's so, do you also think they should have the right to refuse to serve blacks? Or mixed-race couples? Or Armenian-Americans?
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Norton
Social climber
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Apr 11, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
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It doesn't matter how many people are offended by being discriminated against.
What matters is that the lofty principle of religious freedom is upheld.
It's easy when you really think about it.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 11, 2016 - 01:38pm PT
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You were right about my claim
It should have been:
One more Right Wing threat to America, Right Wing Religious Freedom laws being imposed in Red States.
We can put it on the list with:
The Right Wing Congress destroying our Economy
The Right Wing agenda to make this Country a Theocracy
The Right Wing agenda to repress minorities and LBGT rights
The Right Wing agenda to Restrict Voting rights
The Right Wing agenda to make abortion illegal
The Right Wing agenda to punish women who have pre-marital sex (included in the Mississippi RF law)
The Right Wing agenda to restrict the availability of birth control
Right Wing militias
Right Wing loons with Guns
Right Wing Neo-Nazis
ight Wingers being manipulated by the NRA with lies and BS so they live in fear and stock pile guns
The Right Wing Religious Terrorists, which include Christians and Muslims
The Right Wing ability to use lies to sway the low information voters
What else is a threat John?
I'm sorry that some of you aren't up on the current political news, but this is BIG!
it's pretty lame to attack me on this before you even know what this is all about
and this will be a big story as they try to impose these things in other states, and the reaction to it by normal people by boycotting these states and the Right Wingers surrender with big "Fail" signs on their foreheads after losing big money (who are the real losers? the people of the state).
All kinds of Companies and celebrities are pulling out.
Bruce Springsteen cancels North Carolina concert over 'bathroom law'
http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/08/media/bruce-springsteen-north-carolina-show-canceled/index.html
The legendary musician announced Friday that his upcoming show in Greensboro, North Carolina, has been canceled in "solidarity" with those protesting the measure.
The newly enacted law requires individuals to use bathrooms that correspond to the gender on their birth certificate, and has drawn fierce criticism for excluding legal protections from gay and transgender people.
"To my mind, it's an attempt by people who cannot stand the progress our country has made in recognizing the human rights of all of our citizens to overturn that progress," Springsteen said in a statement.
"Taking all of this into account, I feel that this is a time for me and the band to show solidarity for those freedom fighters. As a result, and with deepest apologies to our dedicated fans in Greensboro, we have canceled our show scheduled for Sunday, April 10th," Springsteen said.
"Some things are more important than a rock show," he added, "and this fight against prejudice and bigotry — which is happening as I write — is one of them."
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 11, 2016 - 01:51pm PT
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The biggest threat to America now is these Religious Freedom laws being imposed in Red States.
Wait, I thought the Militias were the biggest threat to America? So the religious freedom laws are the boogeyman now? Good grief.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 11, 2016 - 01:53pm PT
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I changed it, can't you read.
It would be the biggest threat if you were a transgender person that lived in one of these states.
and added the right wing militia threat, which is BIG
Every threat is from Right Wing extremists
and they all vote Republican
and they live in a delusional bubble,
and then blame everything except themselves when another right winger just like them causes trouble
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 11, 2016 - 02:29pm PT
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Should we just consider the Craig Fry - Biggest Threat post to be an open-ended kind of deal then?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 11, 2016 - 02:46pm PT
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Not sure I understand what you're saying, but I think it is that you believe the wedding cake bakers should have the right to refuse to serve gays.
If that's so, do you also think they should have the right to refuse to serve blacks? Or mixed-race couples? Or Armenian-Americans?
No. I'm saying they shouldn't be compelled to write a message supporting gay marriage, any more than someone who doesn't like Armenians should be compelled to decorate a cake for me saying that "Armenian Americans Are The Best." If I just want to get a pre-baked and pre-decorated cake to use at a gay wedding, I'd argue for a different result. Then the compelled service does not include the compelled endorsement. It's the compelled endorsement of a message against conscience to which I object.
John
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 11, 2016 - 03:06pm PT
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Yes
It will be an on-going thing
Right Wingers threaten America through "insert some stupid right wing policy or right wing terrorism here"
Those poor Christians with their deeply held beliefs are the victims here, having to live in the same state as people that they find disgusting an immoral. And having to share bathrooms with icky molesters preying on children, just like Denny Hastert and the Catholic Priests.
oh wait a second, transgender people aren't pedophiles??
But most pedophiles are sexually repressed Hetero right wingers!!,,,, Stop the presses!!
What a crock of sh#t you guys try and sell the dupes.
Grow up, the Constitution does not protect your silly bigotry nor from having icky feelings.
These laws will be overturned by the SCOTUS
The Romney decision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Massachusetts
but of course, the Christians will once again look for a new way to screw minorities
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Norton
Social climber
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Apr 11, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
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It's the compelled endorsement of a message against conscience to which I object.
John, I have not read the law itself, does it really say that in the law, that business owners are now required to not only bake the cake but put any message on it, or to sell a poster or clothing and be required to put language on it that is personally offensive to the business owner, the law says that?
IF so, then I am not sure, but I tend to agree with your position on this
John
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 11, 2016 - 03:15pm PT
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It's BS Norton
Just like you can't make a Jewish baker write hail Hitler on a cake
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 11, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
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Yes
It will be an on-going thing
They're so silly.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 11, 2016 - 05:54pm PT
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This is the biggest BS I've heard this election cycle
What Democrats???
You are completely delusional
every Trump voter is a right winger, Fact
If I was a Democrat in an open primary state, I think I would vote Trump. Dems might pick up huge gains with Trump. What's not like?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 11, 2016 - 06:10pm PT
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"Dems might pick up huge gains with Trump. What's not like?"
Troll or incredibly stooopid?
You decide.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 11, 2016 - 08:29pm PT
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I'd really prefer to have a conversation with you Apogee but all you do is spew obsessive compulsive responses. Lol
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 11, 2016 - 08:57pm PT
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Lol esco!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2016 - 06:25am PT
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John posted Not surprisingly, we see these laws differently. I have no problem with public accommodation sorts of laws in general, but when one is renting their own residence, to me at least, the right to privacy that undergirds, e.g. Roe v. Wade, takes precedence over public accommodations. Similarly, when a business includes exercise of artistic discretion, e.g. decorating a wedding cake with a particular message, freedom of speech (include freedom not to be compelled to write messages against one's conscience) takes precedence over public accommodations.
In other words, you believe in the religious freedom to not serve black people at lunch counters because that's literally what we're talking about, not the freedom to not write something on a birthday cake. It's about WHO is being served. One gives up certain freedoms of expression when they go into business which has been well established by the Supreme Court.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 12, 2016 - 06:45am PT
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If they wanna make money running a business in our public marketplaces then they are going to have to follow our rules.
Yep, and I would absolutely love to see the idea of non-public "club" businesses take off in spades. Like most things that get regulated by .gov, the simple concept of non-discrimination has now been inflated to fill every nook and cranny of an business owners life.
You can't serve trans fat, no smoking, your drinks can't be X big, and the list goes on. This has gone so far past simple things such as non-discrimination and having a fire exit that business owners must be better at jumping through regulatory hoops than they are at their actual business. Which explains a lot about the reduction in innovation and service our country suffers from.
IF a business is a "club", then they have the ability and reserve the right to refuse service (or offer service) to specific clientele. Its about the only way a business owner can avoid some the silly restrictions and regulations and I would enjoy watching some businesses push the boundaries of that concept in an effort to get the pendulum swinging the other way for a change.
Just like I enjoyed watching Uber vex the fee and license boards and otherwise befuddle the local Penergast Machines across the country.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2016 - 06:59am PT
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Escopeta posted You can't serve trans fat, no smoking, your drinks can't be X big, and the list goes on. This has gone so far past simple things such as non-discrimination and having a fire exit that business owners must be better at jumping through regulatory hoops than they are at their actual business. Which explains a lot about the reduction in innovation and service our country suffers from.
I'm pretty sure the inability to serve trans fats or force servers to work in carcinogen filled environments isn't stifling innovation. You're massively conflating the issues when you pivot to talking about Uber, which is just as much about disrupting workers rights as it is about disrupting protectionist licensing regimes. To bring it back to the issue at hand, an Uber driver shouldn't be able to refuse service to a gay couple any more than they should to a black person.
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