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raymond phule
climber
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Mar 21, 2016 - 03:37pm PT
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Craig, I really cant see how my link says the same as your posts.
You wrote
"It's not a single payer system, it's a Government run health care system"
about Canada and my link even use Canada as an example of a single payer system.
"Single payer and Government run health care are 2 completely different things"
My understanding, after reading my link, is that a single payer health care can be either privately or Government run (or a mix of both).
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 21, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
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Yes, they are different
as in Not similar, as I said above
the only similarity is paying a single entity
No is talking about Canada's system when they say "Single Payer", Fact.
You are just pressing a technicality that has no bearing on our discussion of Single Payer
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raymond phule
climber
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Mar 21, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
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"Why point out Canada's system?
It's not a single payer system, it's a Government run health care system"
"Canada's system is a single payer yes"
"Single payer and Government run health care are 2 completely different things"
I think I continue believing the wiki article. It is at least consistent.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 21, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
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I think I'm starting to understand why you tards don't like MB1. He owns you.
Locker, did I just?.....maybe so.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Mar 21, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
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I like Madbolter...He doesn't own anybody..sorry escopeta...
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 21, 2016 - 04:44pm PT
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Escobaria is a lot like rong
wrong about most everything
no one owns anyone
and do you really have to refer to us as tards?
are you giving us justification to call you a moron?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Mar 21, 2016 - 04:48pm PT
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"He owns you"
You mean the piece I rid myself of after my morning coffee,you are correct.
Nobody owns you folks .
Justifying your selfishness is pretty much a solo thing,you cannot even agree that you are disagreeing.
Get Capitalism out of Health Care,period.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 21, 2016 - 05:09pm PT
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no one owns anyone
Or any THING in this great nation anymore. LOL
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 21, 2016 - 05:21pm PT
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Germany's system is not really "single payer" in anything like the sense we're talking about, nor in the sense of many other European nations (like the UK).
You're right, but I think you're splitting hairs with respect to this discussion. Germany is much like MEDICARE here in the US, which is often called "single-payer" but often involves supplementary private coverage like Part-A and B Medicare. So (technically) this is multi-payer.
Curt
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 21, 2016 - 05:22pm PT
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Gonna vote for Bernie tomorrow. Anything to defeat Hilary.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Mar 21, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
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Sounds like you'll vote Bernie...and then Trump in Nov.
Weird.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 21, 2016 - 05:34pm PT
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you're splitting hairs
True, but a major problem really is in getting clear about "the issue."
Look upthread, and you see that even people that basically agree struggle to get clear about what a whole range of terms even mean. The devil really is in the details!
I'd be more likely to support a German system than a Canadian one. The best approach would be something like what Finland is now thinking to adopt (since we're WAY down the road already regarding wealth redistribution): The government would just GIVE every person about $900 per year to be spent however they choose, but eliminate the sweeping welfare-state.
Given that we've decided to take from the "rich" and give to the "poor," let's reintroduce the notion of individual responsibility and priorities. As one Finnish government source said, "If you want to spend all of it on vodka, that's fine. But there's no more welfare." I'm all for the idea of people being allowed to prioritize their spending any way they see fit, with NO welfare. YOU get to enjoy ALL of the consequences of your priorities.
Oh, wait. That would never work here. People can't be trusted to spend wisely, even with their GIVEN funds. That's why we MUST have a full-blown welfare state. Something like that is why we now have Obamacare, with the "rich" subsidizing the "poor" (really, subsidizing the insurance companies).
Address the COSTS of healthcare. and the vast majority of the other "reforms" will fall into place naturally.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Mar 21, 2016 - 05:54pm PT
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It certainly is a welfare state.
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Jorroh
climber
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Mar 21, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
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Madbolter said...."but eliminate the sweeping welfare-state."
I think you'll find that that doesn't include healthcare
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Mar 21, 2016 - 06:38pm PT
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Agreed,but,He is missing The Barn.
It's a big GD barn as well.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Mar 21, 2016 - 06:59pm PT
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Willbeer you have to do some amazingly fancy math to get those numbers.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Mar 21, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
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You are right here on the internet,it shows the sources,look it up .
I have.
Edit;Kind of like Bernies"fuzzy math".
You know you Could find out ,but why ,when you can just denounce it and that becomes Your fact.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 21, 2016 - 10:24pm PT
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Wilbeer, your figures don't take into account what is now WELL established, with me and my company being a classic example of what happened across America: Overnight our premiums went up 40.02%, and the plan we were offered for the privilege of that radical increase was a significantly worse plan.
Somebody had to "chip in" to help pay for all the uninsured that "couldn't afford" health insurance.
The most tragic part is that these millions of newly "insured" really aren't. Try telling somebody with a $6000 annual deductible that they are "insured." Unless they've recently been diagnosed with a catastrophic disease, they'll laugh in your face. For most of those millions, they are now paying something (and so am I to "chip in") for an "insurance" that actually doesn't do them ANY good at all.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 21, 2016 - 11:21pm PT
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Somebody had to "chip in" to help pay for all the uninsured that "couldn't afford" health insurance.
All the more reason for universal, single-payer, basic healthcare - so long as basic healthcare is a for profit venture it will continue to burden companies which, comparatively speaking, shouldn't be in either the basic healthcare or pension businesses. Private healthcare and pensions above and beyond the basics should be a merit-based incentive / perk for businesses.
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Degaine
climber
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Mar 22, 2016 - 02:18am PT
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Universal healthcare coverage is a better term than single payer, although countries like France, Germany, Switzerland, and Japan, have one, the other or a mix of both.
Single payer does not necessarily mean government run care. In all of the above countries most GPs and specialists are private providers, with the whatever "medical care giver" status for that particular country (could be independent contractor, for example). The care providers that are officially government employees are often ER docs or permanent hospital staff.
All of the countries listed provide healthcare at a much cheaper cost per person than in the US and all of their citizens are covered. It will come as no surprise that the overall outcomes in these countries are far superior to outcomes in the the US with the exception, if memory serves, of certain types of cancer.
The cost per capita in France and Germany is half that of the US; the cost per capita in Japan is one-third that of the US. Wait times are not an issue (in France one can see a GP if needed within the hour, but the visit might cost 56€ instead of the standard 23€ if not with your PCP, and fee is 65% to 70% reimbursed).
France has private supplemental insurance that covers the gap between the fee and what the single payer reimburses. If you are below the poverty line, the single payer pays 100%. For non-essentials (dental, plastic surgery, etc.), the private supplemental insurance covers the fees.
The system that would likely work best is some form of Medicare for all with a private supplemental insurance component.
From a pure economics and outcomes point of view, universal healthcare systems prove time and again to cost less and to provide better outcomes.
That's not to say that the ACA is anything to write home about. It was/is a crappy first step in the right direction. The one truly positive aspect is that coverage cannot be refused.
Cheers.
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