What is "Mind?"

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Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Jun 29, 2014 - 11:27am PT

I think in general this is true (I ponder it often in regard to my own life and propensities), but it is also a feature of Zen, coming as it does out of the crowded conditions and group orientation of China and Japan.

The Indian and Tibetan views can be quite different. There is the tradition of the wandering sadhu in India who has renounced family and caste, left home, and can never stay more than three nights in the same place.In Tibet, there were and are many lone hermits whose only human contact for years, is a villager who comes up (they're always high on the mountain far away from human habitation) to silently leave food, bow, and retreat.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Jun 29, 2014 - 12:05pm PT

But to be sure, every time anyone sits down to meditate, you do it alone.

i certainly disagree. Maybe ur right figuratively, but are we ever truely alone? Just as in Ed's touching story about soloing, it' a fine example of how we can set out thinking we are in control of our destiny. The mind, even when put in the position where extreme focus is mandatory or else certain death. Still the mind wrestles with itself.

im sure u'll scoff at my meditation practice. i employ it alone, but i dont look to be alone when finished. My meditation starts quiet and still. Focusing on the spaces between thoughts and trying to run down those hallways with a low hum, then almost a chanting of the word Jesus. Which turns into a praising of, thank you thank you thank you... Until emotional experiences arise, at this point i sit quiet waiting for scripture to unfold. With or without this confirmation i'll return to the "hallway" allowing what comes naturally. For me meditation is all about a detachment to the possibility's of what the future may hold. And a sheer determinism to hold what is here and now, and hold up was has been.
But thats just me

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Jun 29, 2014 - 12:15pm PT

For sure, one of these best techniques for slowing down the monkey mind is chanting a simple word or phrase. For me it works even better if I do it mentally to a simple tune of some sort. If it gets too complicated (too many syllables) or it is a phrase laden with a lot of meaning, then the monkey takes off with it.

jstan

climber

Jun 29, 2014 - 12:49pm PT

Interesting. So Zen may be a method for extracting at least part of ones' self from all the
interfaces with other people? A way out of the matrix? I started climbing after I had passed the
exam qualifying me to work toward an advanced degree. I liked climbing at least partly because
the problems were posed by nature and were not posed by some other person. If that is the case I
elected to climb rather than to to Zen mind training.

Now if there are numerous others who like climbing because of this feature, we can understand
our general inability to discuss "climbing ethics" whatever that is. If so we have what seems a
fundamental paradox with which to deal.

I personally feel comfortable with the following resolution of that conflict:

1. As long as the experiences available to our fellows is not prejudiced by my actions, I can do
whatever I like. I can not unilaterally modify the rock, destroy vegetation etc, but my choices are
my choices otherwise.
2. At the same time other people are attracted to climbing because it is a way to compare what
we can do with what others can do, or otherwise make our mark on the human record. So we talk
climb ratings, guidebooks, and do any number of other things.
3. If we make a category for each nuance of climbing, 100 people will be pursuing 100 different
forms of climbing.

The arguments I have seen in the last half century tend to indicate (3) is correct. If this is true we
are pursuing a chimera when we attempt a use of climbing as expressed in (2).

So I abandon (2) and for it receive (1) as a solution.

jgill

Boulder climber

Colorado

Jun 29, 2014 - 01:16pm PT

This is quintessential American, cowboy thinking. I know it well. The Lone Ranger and all that. Self reliance. The problem is this avenue rarely leads to self transcendence, but more often to even more self will and control issues. The point is to let the self vanish (JL)

Once again I will chime in with support for one's "I", without which we are animal vegetables at best. What is so dreadful about this "I"? Why must we seek through arduous exercises to dispel it, at least temporarily? If we are victims of "monkey brain" perhaps changing to more decaf is in order. Whatever happened to the notion of self-control? Self discipline?

Must we "give up our lives for Jesus and do his bidding" or evacuate our brains as we strive for "no-thingness"? Are we that disturbed that numbing erratic mental machinery is the only answer?

One should relish one's "I", for it is pure will (this is an epiphany I experienced forty years ago) and without it we are empty vessels, globs of undulating beef. We can create nothing, nor understand what others have created in this vacuous state. The genius of Da Vinci did not flourish from hours of no-mindness.

All that being said, I did meditate regularly in the 1950s and 1960s before bouldering or solo climbing, as Chouinard mentioned in Master of Rock, calming and focusing the mind before physical activity. And bouldering frequently was moving meditation. But if anything this delineated and sharpened my "I" in preparation for whatever project I was on. My "I" was not subdued, rather it became woven - intact - into the tapestry of my experience.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Jun 29, 2014 - 01:29pm PT

^^^^
Nice.

"I" never dies.

It can forget, remember, do nothing but mostly do something.

According to some "I" is not the mind but has a mind. I've found this to be true.

I think the great appeal of climbing is permits/forces us to shut off the mind.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jun 29, 2014 - 02:06pm PT

don't know about the inner lives of animals or vegetables...

but yoga isn't a loss of I, nor is rock climbing, but it is more extensive then what is running around in the discursive mind, a larger "I" which includes more than can be described...

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2014 - 02:54pm PT

The problem with trying to describe any of this from the outside, is that you end up defending what does not need defending.

There is nothing "wrong" with our provisional "I," or the constelation of primary selves that make up our ego self. We need that to function in the world.

But when we delve deeper than survival, we discover not a need to get rid of anything ("I"), but rather the "I" simply falls away, as does duality. There is watching and experiencing, but there is no substantive, stand-alone "I" that is DOIGN this watching or experiencing. That "I" is just another cloud in the matrix.

But we so much want to hang onto some "thing" and make THAT real. In this case, the precious "I."

JL

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Jun 29, 2014 - 03:02pm PT

JGill that's a fine argument!

i'm prolly taking for granted what the Zenzoneans(jus play'in)get out of meditating when i say i agree with you.

The act of trying to meditate is one thing. But don't we in a type of meditation try and control our minds in everyday activities? For instance going to school. We methodically go to class each day, sitting astutely, quietening the mind,narrowing the focus to ears for learning. All else blocked but that teachers voice. And even you said "moving over stone is meditative" Rowing a boat was VERY meditative for me. But aren't all these, Zen included(from what i understand of it)solely pertaining to ones own ego?

In contrast i've found meditating on the Word opens up the consciousness of the world, everything outside of the Id. And that could be in the form of deciphering a math problem, figuring out a glitch in a non-running engine, to deciding who to vote for, to understanding why someone is mad
at me.

What i mean by World conscious, and using scripture. It allows the Truths thought to be pertinent by the Creator to teach All generations. Thus allowing ones own conscious to be open to learning from other peoples lessons from as long ago as we can remember. When we inturn use these lessons learned, God's Truths are revealed. Meditating this way, focusing on other peoples points of view blinds ones own ego. Crying out to the Lord through sympathy is a sure road to enlightenment. For spiritual matters anyway, It only works about half the time when fixing engines though!

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Jun 29, 2014 - 03:49pm PT

Physical, hatha yoga, is one type of yoga and meditation is another. Thinking your way out of ego (with or without scriptures) is also possible and is another type, as is selfless service and love and devotion. There are multiple paths and the fully realized human being would be reasonably good at all of them.

What I like about the eastern orientation, is that it stresses working with your strong points first, meaning whatever yoga is easiest for a person to succeed at, and then slowly shoring up the others. I personally think this is psychologically more beneficial and more efficient than dwelling on one's shortcomings and trying to change them first.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2014 - 04:03pm PT

My take on it is that our "I" is the equal of the things Ed spoke about during his practice, and these keep coming up and reminding of the temporal world of things. We our experience shifts to the boundless moments BETWEEN thkings, thoughts, feelings, and sensations, we find no self, no things, no-thing at all. Also known as our "True Self," we discover it is no thing at all.

Sounds like jibbering to the discursive mind - that which bookends the experience between.

JL

Ward Trotter

Trad climber

Jun 29, 2014 - 04:08pm PT

What is so dreadful about this "I"? Why must we seek through arduous exercises to dispel it, at least temporarily?

Regarding the "I" per se as a dispensable entity may not be at the heart of the problem---what is problematic is the possibility of an unregulated dynamic set in motion by the conscious mind in its evolutionarily driven need to stay abreast of things as a survival imperative.

William James described the self as that kernel of consciousness that persists throughout various experiences and sensations. The self is divided between the stream of consciousness and an internal observer

Survival in a nasty world is not a bowl of cherries. Perhaps the operative word in the above is "divided" This process can get out of hand:

Self-awareness exists as a running critique organizing conscious experience. Telling stories to ourselves (often about ourselves) is the cognitive default.

And so you might want to fast forward to the modern world in which many "I s" are beset by worry, insecurity, fear, confusion.
All the flight or fight mechanisms --- without the opportunity for flight or fight.
We have gotten pretty good , by and large, at dealing with our condition. We have evolved escape mechanisms. But not without a price.

Escaping continual self-observation seems an underappreciated pleasure. Roy Baumeister wrote an entire book devoted to the premise that self-awareness is frequently a burden. Across cultures, we blunt awareness with alcohol, drugs, auto-hypnotic rituals and when times are dire, suicide. Meditation offers relief from this self-preoccupation and one of the few tools for creating a durable boost in happiness—perhaps by dampening activity in regions implicated in judgment, comparison, planning and self-scrutiny.

Another casualty of our high-octane default consciousness is a distracted mind. The inability to remain relatively calm and focused:

Distinct from deliberate daydreaming, our mind gets offtrack. Such mental meandering is tied to negative mood. Chronic psychological stress, suffered by millions, may be built on a mind consumed by rumination, worry or fear about many topics. This type of diffused and unstable focus impairs performance, too. In moments that demand quick decisions and action, the consequences of diverted attention and perception could be deadly.

BTW ,this problem of the chronically distracted mind has been popularly addressed by what has been variously termed the " mindfulness" approach.http://www.themindcentre.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Scientific-American-article.pdf

jgill

Boulder climber

Colorado

Jun 29, 2014 - 04:37pm PT

But we so much want to hang onto some "thing" and make THAT real. In this case, the precious "I."

. . . our experience shifts to the boundless moments BETWEEN things, thoughts, feelings, and sensations, we find no self, no things, no-thing at all. Also known as our "True Self," we discover it is no thing at all.

We are at opposite ends of a spectrum of mental phenomena here. My experience of the separation of "I-consciousness" from the physical body [that was how I felt it to be] was the most exhilarating sensation I've ever had - an incredible feeling of freedom that I interpreted to be pure will unencumbered by the limitations of corporal existence. I literally walked through walls [again, that is what it seemed]. You would probably caste these as spiritual(?) aberrations that fall away as one proceeds toward the emergence of our "True Self". I am just as convinced that "I-consciousness" is our "True Self."

And merely because it took a short period of time for me to have these adventures, whereas Zen knowledge takes years of practice is no argument that Zen's "True Self" is undeniably valid, and my experience just a divertissement along the Path of True Knowledge.

You might deny that no-thingness is a "mental state", but I assert it is indeed. Were you to be hit on the head and lose consciousness while dwelling in no-thingness, would you still retain your special condition of awareness?

It has been remarked that finding one's "True Self" leads to a more benign, more compassionate personality . . . perhaps a living sainthood. I have my doubts, but I could be wrong.

And so you might want to fast forward to the modern world in which many "I s" are beset by worry, insecurity, fear, confusion

Those suffering these problems can indeed be helped by Zen and other meditative exercises as psychiatric therapy.

Meditation offers relief from this self-preoccupation

I'm not sure I would equate "I-consciousness" with "self-preoccupation." Think of climbing - an act of will, but self-preoccupation would be a diversion of focus and a hazard.

Entertaining stuff . . .

Ward Trotter

Trad climber

Jun 29, 2014 - 04:57pm PT

My experience of the separation of "I-consciousness" from the physical body [that was how I felt it to be] was the most exhilarating sensation I've ever had - an incredible feeling of freedom that I interpreted to be pure will unencumbered by the limitations of corporal existence

JGill, for your consideration:

Pleasure is also linked to a loss of awareness of the boundaries of our body, and this, too, involves both sides of the brain. Orgasm and meditation dissolve the sense of physical boundary, but the activation patterns are distinct. Meditation does so in a somewhat cerebral way, altering bodily self-awareness by enhancing activity in specific brain regions, such as right angular gyrus—regions that become most lively during attempts to imagine ourselves from a stranger’s perspective, during out of body experiences or déjà vu, and in a neurologically obscure disorder in which patients lack awareness of their own paralysis or bodily infirmity.

jgill

Boulder climber

Colorado

Jun 29, 2014 - 05:01pm PT

Yes, Ward, no doubt it was a mental state with neurological basis. It just seemed to be more real than normal reality.

There is no reason to think that attaining one's "True Self" via Zen is any different.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber

Jun 29, 2014 - 05:07pm PT

Also in your above post you stated:

It has been remarked that finding one's "True Self" leads to a more benign, more compassionate personality . . . perhaps a living sainthood. I have my doubts, but I could be wrong.

Actually the reverse may be true, namely, finding compassion first:

Left prefrontal cortex activation correlates with happiness and Tibetan Buddhist monks have created the greatest measured spike in activity in this region produced by simple thought when meditating on compassion. The reported depth of meditation also corresponds to activity in the brain’s pleasure centers, such as left forebrain bundle, anterior insula and precentral gyrus. This overt pleasure is accompanied by a shift in emotional self-regulation; meditators are more aware of thoughts and feelings conceptually, but less emotionally disrupted by them, according to one study. Both hemispheres are involved in self-observation.

bTW , I had a great link on a paper titled The Body in the Brain : Neural Basis of Corporeal Awareness . but the link re-sized the thread page. (Berlucchi, 1997)

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2014 - 05:30pm PT

John, no one I know in Zen would ever say yours are not wonderfuil experiences (It is a standard rule in Zen to never comapre yhour experiences with others - or to take others inventories ). To the best of my knowledge and experience, I believe what you encountered is the esoteric realizatioin that raw awareness is not local. It is not confined nor yet "created" by the neurobiology that seemingly hosts it, nor yet is it separate from all the other things - that is, it does not exist in a vacume as a stand-alone "thing." This, perhaps, is half of the equation refered to as "body and mind" falling away.

It is not unusual for people to have these experiences early on in practice. Some people freak out because you are not grounded in the normal sense of the word and instead it can feel at once freeing but homeless. A common way to approach this is to keep boring into the very nature of "what" is free, or scared, or having a transcendent expoerience, or questioning if this is inferior to what the Zen masters experience and so forth.

IOWs, WHAT is that which asks these questions, that has these experiences, that wonders about others, and so forth.

Seeing that this "I" that can even walk through walls is no-thing at all is the part that takes time because our minds want to codify and actualize this into a self, a higher self, a spiritual entity, a non-corporeal experiencer, and so forth. The tendency and inner imperative to reify this into something we can name and know and have a feel for is a stubborn and innate aspect of the mind that I have never seen simply fade away in ANYONE without tons of practice, and even thin it can reconstitute in a flash.

At least that's been my experience with what I think you are saying, as best as I can reckon it.

Ward said: Self-awareness exists as a running critique organizing conscious experience. Telling stories to ourselves (often about ourselves) is the cognitive default.

This sounds more like the running commentary issuing from what Freud called the Superego, and what modern psychology calls the Inner Critic - one of the most fascinating and confounding sub-personalities in our medly of primary selves or "I's."

JL

Ward Trotter

Trad climber

Jun 29, 2014 - 05:44pm PT

from what Freud called the Superego,

I like to call the Cerebral Cortex : The Administration Building

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Jun 29, 2014 - 05:52pm PT

Actually the reverse may be true, namely, finding compassion first:

Left prefrontal cortex activation correlates with happiness and Tibetan Buddhist monks have created the greatest measured spike in activity in this region produced by simple thought when meditating on compassion. The reported depth of meditation also corresponds to activity in the brain’s pleasure centers, such as left forebrain bundle, anterior insula and precentral gyrus. This overt pleasure is accompanied by a shift in emotional self-regulation; meditators are more aware of thoughts and feelings conceptually, but less emotionally disrupted by them, according to one study. Both hemispheres are involved in self-observation.

Compassion is our true self! Remember, God is Love. One can never recognize their true self without tapping into God's compassion.

Tibetan monks don't have the REAL world in their thoughts either. And i know some old ladies that would give'm a run for their money!

And where would Joy be in your measurements?