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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 27, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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Good points, Matt.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 27, 2007 - 01:14pm PT
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Batrock wrote:
HK,
are you saying we have to take into account that someone might be dead in two years before we make a remark about them?
No, knott at all. It's just that those tedious, chicken-shít comments about Todd Skinner were nothing new,
and now that he's gone they seem even more lame and chicken-shít, especially considering the hundreds
of posts in his memorial thread affirming what a great guy he was - both within and outside of the climbing "community".
Batrock - a few posts later you wrote:
The guys who shat on the ropes are low life cowards who have no stones, if this meant so much to them should stand up and take credit for protecting the Big Stone.
It seems that we're on the same page. There are so many cowards who bad-mouth people relentlessly
from the safety of a remote computer, who wouldn't dare risk an in-person encounter.
In Todd's memorial thread, one of these ugly cowards made an unbelievably horrific comment,
and this was after Todd's family members (including his young niece) had posted.
Fortunately the post was deleted and the account banned within minutes; hopefully most missed it.
So perhaps I'm a bit sensitive, especially having had my own flock of Internet Bitches™ with a hard-on for me...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 27, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
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Tom quote: "In 1982, nobody was even thinking of freeing that slab. 25 years....."
Not true, Dale Bard, Kauk and others, were thinking and seriously looking at it for a free climbing line.
Only two guys were involved with the travesty of physically messing with the WOS teams ropes and route.
Don't lump everyone else into a blanket statement that they were involved. Those 2 guys acted alone that night without anyone else's knowledge.
The people around at that time would not have condoned that type of sabotage that those 2 guys did.
Seriously man, the whole history of WOS has been blown way out proportion and over zealously dramatized by a few interested individuals to make it seem bigger than life.
Beyers did a route to the left of West Face of El Cap that I believe hasn't had a second ascent yet either.
All this WOS steel over hyped bullshit will remain for people with no real clue about what climbing is about. They want to remain in their private little world of controversy and self bias.
The rest will just climb the Captain in the best way they can and walk by the physiological wreck that people have created in their own minds of that WOS.
If anyone ever does the 2nd ascent it will not be the second coming, but more anticlimatic.
A technically difficult route only will usually not inspire, this is one of the main reason people reject WOS.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 27, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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"Not true, Dale Bard, Kauk and others, were thinking and seriously looking at it for a free climbing line.'
and
'A technically difficult route only will usually not inspire, this is one of the main reason people reject WOS."
Seems kinda contradictory, Werner... Seems that it inspired some of the best of the era and our sport.
Just pointing it out.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 27, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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Nefarius
I believe what Werner might have meant that as a free line it is incredibly inspiring, but as a blank aid line it isn't.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 27, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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But their main motivations were not to "create a technically only" hard climb.
That was a side product of the "Line" and weakness of the rock which gave passage to the summit; (we call it a route, a line. etc.).
So if someone is inspired to do this line "WOS" then go do it.
I really feel most people don't really want to climb an aid route with predominately so many hooking moves pitch after pitch.
That's why you "see" routes like let's say Zodiac, PO as "Classic" where as WOS is on the far far extreme end "fanatical aid".
Most climbers are not at the extreme end of fanatical aid climbing.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 27, 2007 - 05:39pm PT
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I can understand that, John and Werner. Personally, I really enjoy doing routes with beautiful lines that call to you. And this is definitely the consensus feeling amongst climbers and FAist, for sure. But who's to say what is inspiring to others? In discussions I've had with people, it seems that the Great Slab did call to others, even for possible aid routes. Maybe it was the difficulty of the thing that called? The fact that there had been attempts on it and people bailed super low on the slab, etc. Of course, this just goes along with Werner's above lines on fanatical aid.
I can definitely understand it not being people's thing, at all. Obviously, it wasn't ptpp's thing. Probably too much hard work! haha! Talking with Ammon, he definitely has expressed what you're talking about. Especially what Werner says about the hooking, pitch after pitch. He said it was boring, not inspirational and frustrating, having to look for micro-hook move after micro-hook move. I can see it being really tedious.
But, man WoS would be a sick free line, for sure! That would be badass. I remember being able to see that the first pitch looked like it would go free. Linking feature to feature. There is a section of slab about 60' up that looked pretty heinous though. Can't say for certain, but it was between like the 2nd and 3rd bolt. It didn't look as bad when you were up there vs. looking up from the ground though.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 27, 2007 - 06:14pm PT
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"Two guys"?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 27, 2007 - 06:42pm PT
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Werner,
Those last two post were full of it.
"Dale Bard, Kauk and others, were thinking and seriously looking at it for a free climbing line."
Really? That might be, but strange that WOS has seen a 1000 posts, many by you, and this fact comes to light only now even though this very point was the topic of discussion when the WOS threads were active 2 years ago. Also, in the pre-Fire's era, even Kauk wouldn't need more than 5 minutes to see that he wasn't doing a free ascent. Moreover, we showed up not long after Yaniro (world's first 5.13) had made an attempt on the Slab ... an AID attempt. Evidently he didn't view an aid route on the Slab as sullying a great El Cap feature destined for better things.
"Only two guys were involved with the travesty of physically messing with the WOS teams ropes and route. Don't lump everyone else into a blanket statement that they were involved. Those 2 guys acted alone that night without anyone else's knowledge. The people around at that time would not have condoned that type of sabotage that those 2 guys did."
What total, utter, BS through and through. Only two choppers, and no one else complicit, huh? Evidently you absented yourself from the Valley the week after the chopping, especially the night after when multiple people cat-called to us from the campfire at your (YOSAR) campsite, boisterously proclaiming that "we chopped your route" mixed with various other insults and profanity. "The people around at that time would not have condoned that type of sabotage …" What a joke. I’m sure that is very, very true for some who were there, but unfortunately that sentiment can’t be applied to the Valley locals as a whole.
"A technically difficult route only will usually not inspire, this is one of the main reason people reject WOS."
Say what? People reject WOS because it doesn’t inspire? Good thing for Yaniro that he saw the light before finishing the Slab and thereby marring his reputation as a visionary first ascensionist. Hey, maybe that's why I never climb at GPA, the rockfall is ok but all that nothingness just leaves me empty. Oh, wait, now I get it! A free route working up a line of weaknesses through a blank slab is Kauk-worthy ascetic, but an aid line doing the same is uninspiring.
I really feel most people don't really want to climb an aid route with predominately so many hooking moves pitch after pitch.
Ah, a nugget of truth unearthed.
That's why you "see" routes like let's say Zodiac, PO as "Classic" where as WOS is on the far far extreme end "fanatical aid". Most climbers are not at the extreme end of fanatical aid climbing.
Hmmm, kind of sounds like the Sea on the early 80's, doesn't it?
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Dec 27, 2007 - 08:00pm PT
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yawn
I'm way dumber for having read this thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 27, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
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MSmith
I said "thinking" do have reading comprehension problems?
Do you have other "problems" that still linger? Like trying to link me to your WOS nightmares?
If you only really knew .......
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 27, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
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WBraun
Looks like your basic strategy is smearing my character rather than addressing my points......
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 28, 2007 - 12:43am PT
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^^^
pride
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 01:30am PT
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I don't really have anything to add to the WOS debate, but MSmtih it's been 9 months since your last post here... perhaps things have been slow on STForum but in the 2 years since your first post of 95, the vast majority have been responding in one way or the other to topics on WOS.
I appreciate your willingness to provide your point of view on the history of that climb. And I understand, to some extent, the passion this episode inspired.
And though my wishes really don't necessarily mean a whole lot to anyone here, what would be fantastic for me is to get your input and insight into climbing and climbs beyond WOS. Climbing doesn't begin and end with that FA. And the community of climbers has grown and changed a lot from those tribal, territorial days. My guess is that you don't have much need for the STForum community, just as I have come to understand that you didn't have much need for the Yosemite Valley community at the time you did WOS.
Just a thought.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 01:34am PT
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MSmith,
What is it that you need right now? I am in about the same position as Werner, I was around at the time, I am not sure who did the bad deed to you, but have an idea and it was certainly the most immature members of the Valley community at the time. Sure, without thinking too hard about it, and not really knowing the move for move reality of your route, at the time, like most everyone else, I thought WOS was a strange forced line. Yes, I admit it, I probably laughed when I heard about the incident, and probably had some sort of local "in with the in crowd" attitude in relation to what happened, so I am complicit in your eyes.
I feel bad that this still haunts you. I am truly sorry as a valley local guy at the time that you were treated badly by the community.
So here we are today, on this forum, Werner, (and I would like to think myself as well) is one of the more thoughtful and caring members of that community of old, and still there is seemingly nothing that can be said that will make you feel better. Only you can get over this. How are you going to do that?
Sincerely,
Peter
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Dec 28, 2007 - 08:52am PT
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Like a bird rising out of Pheonix, Arizona!!!1
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Dec 28, 2007 - 10:07am PT
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Less chit chat
more tap tap.
~~~~~~~
maysho speaks the truth.
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Meaty
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 10:20am PT
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"I don't know much else about Dimitri......." Yeah Nefarius, you don't know sh#t, you got that right!
Hey Nefarius, this is the last line of your post, maybe you should regard the words you type you sacklicking bitch.
"Maybe this is why history books are more propaganda than actual history a lot of the time."
Oh yeah!! You wouldn't know history if it slapped you in the face. What you posted about me is pure propaganda you dipsh#t.
I had nothing to do with shitting on those ropes, nothing. I wasn't there but I surely know who did those things. Go crawl back up the as#@&%e you were born out of you pathetic piece of sh#t. Why don't you post the names of the people that actually did what you claim instead of speculative bullsh#t, f*#k off Nefarius! You said something about character? You've got none.
edit: One of the two people that did sh#t on those ropes posts here on a somewhat regular basis, and if he had balls he would set the record straight, I was NOT involved in any way whatsoever and for you to just spew lies and innuendo about me shows you're an ignorant jackass. Piss off Nefarius.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:22am PT
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If you examine the point at which this thread was revived, you’ll notice that – specifically – it’s me who brought this thread back, not Mark. Further, Mark is simply and legitimately responding to comments made about events involving a FA he completed and a route he and his partner designed, now as it would seem in each of the posts made in the past regarding this topic.
Ed - That such a large number of posts have been made by Mark also on topics pertaining to events he was involved with is irrelevant, and does not diminish the validity of his statements. It most certainly does not call into question his involvement with this forum community as a whole.
“My guess is that you don't have much need for the STForum community, just as I have come to understand that you didn't have much need for the Yosemite Valley community at the time you did WOS.”
That’s about as contrived as saying that if she weighs the same as a duck, she’s made of wood, and therefore a witch! Your “guess” doesn’t have any reasonable backing evidence, and is ludicrously set up to draw lines between two communities and circumstances that are as comparable as parrots and Richard Simmons. I hear they both have an affinity for wearing feathers, but that’s an aside.
And Maysho, what does anyone who has been slandered, suppressed, and had their character called into question on a public scale for decades want? To let the truth be heard. Don’t act like it’s the result of some deep-rooted personal problem that he responds legitimately to comments made about events that directly involve him.
“People don't give a sh#t about your climb because in the end a piece of rock doesn't matter if you are not a human being.
So, you didn't give a sh#t what the climbing community thought about you. You cared what your world - your religous world - thought about you.
Well in the end that is what you have got.Respect in your world.
But zero respect in the climbing world even though your skills are obviously comparable to the very best.”
Radical, glad you found a magic window to see into the souls of people you don’t even know, though I doubt you’ll be able to usher in a new era of peace between our world leaders with it, given that it is – much like your assumptions – cracked beyond repair. About the only accuracy in your tirade is that yes – Mark has earned a great deal of respect by a great many people, but as should be painfully obvious by now it had nothing to do with WoS. Mark was as respected a teacher as he was while I was a student due to the fact that he cared both about the students he taught and about the subject matter he taught them – and that he went to great lengths to never compromise his commitment to either. So how about you try a nice cup of shut the f*#k up about people you don’t know a thing about? It’s bitter, but then, hell, what around here isn’t?
I don't know. Maybe it was impulsive of me to post my account of Mark’s good character in this thread, but damn if it doesn’t appear those who want to defame and demean WoS and their climbers are the ones who won’t let go.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 12:02pm PT
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I was going to respond to your email, meaty, but figured why not cut and paste it here since you also display your tough-guy mentality here too... Or is it Kindergarten charm?
Your response to me would really suggest to more level persons otherwise. Sounds like you have some anger management issues. More likely internet swole syndrome. Regardless, you might want to suggest to your peers, who were there at the time, to not say it was you, if that's the case. More specifically, you were singled out as the shitter, not necessarily as a chopper.
I could, honestly, give a f*#k whether or not is was you or any of your jackass friends. With all of you f*#ktards running around taunting them and trying to lay claim to being the tough guys that chopped and sh#t, it's no wonder that things got confused in the end. I'd be surprised, at this point, if any of you - other than those who were at the scene, know who actually did it. I doubt, whether it was you or not, that the persons involved will ever come forth. Pretty typical inner-fat-child-bully behavior. Too bad you, or friends, or whoever didn't sh#t on the ropes of a couple of guys who didn't have as much character as Mark and Richard, who would have dished out the ass whipping that was deserved.
Cheers!
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