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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 12, 2011 - 02:03am PT
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jstan,
Sorry I didn't see your posts sooner, but I'm not that sorry because paying work, food and piano practice intervened.
Since you're talking about regulation, we should note the passing of Alfred Kahn who, although a Carter administration official, was really the father of rational deregulation. He wrote a two-volume set The Economics of Regulation: Principles and Institutions (New York, John Wiley, 1970). I don't know if it's still in print, and I'm sure it isn't cheap if it is (it cost me $32.00 plus tax in 1977). It's still probably the most cogent discussion of regulation's promise and problems.
If this thread maintains continuity amidst the insulters, it looks like there's some worthwhile discussion.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 12, 2011 - 02:04am PT
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AC,
Very cool pics!
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 12, 2011 - 02:11am PT
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just like all the Other Big Lies, that your side has used to divide this country
you stuffed yourself, sucker
-Dr. F
Now, what was that about toning down the rhetoric, my good Dr.?
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 12, 2011 - 03:16am PT
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Tucson rallies to protect girl's family from protesters
Arizona lawmakers pass an emergency measure to stop Westboro Baptist Church from demonstrating at the funeral of Christina Green, 9. Outraged residents make plans to shield her family.
By Seema Mehta and Nicole Santa Cruz, Los Angeles Times
Reporting from Tucson — — Arizona lawmakers moved quickly Tuesday to try to block protesters from the funeral of 9-year-old shooting victim Christina Green, passing an emergency measure prohibiting protests within 300 feet of any funeral services.
In addition to the new law, hundreds of Tucson residents were making contingency plans to try to protect the family of the girl who was slain in Saturday's rampage.
The actions were prompted by the Westboro Baptist Church, a publicity-seeking Kansas congregation known for demonstrating at the funerals of U.S. soldiers, arguing that their deaths are retribution by God for America's acceptance of homosexuality. The church announced it would protest Green's funeral, scheduled for Thursday, because the family is Catholic.
The protest drew instant and unanimous condemnation from Arizonans.
"Protesting or picketing outside the funeral of an innocent victim is despicable," said House Speaker Kirk Adams. "It's time to bring Arizona in line with the many other states that protect the sensitivities of victims against groups that use fear and hate to denigrate the lives of Americans."
Adams sponsored the emergency measure that prohibits people from picketing or protesting within 300 feet of any residence, cemetery, funeral home, church, synagogue or other establishment during or within one hour of a funeral service or burial service.
The House and Senate passed the bill unanimously Tuesday. Gov. Jan Brewer signed the measure Tuesday evening.
The founder of the Westboro Baptist Church, Fred Phelps, has traveled with his daughters and granddaughters throughout the county picketing soldiers' funerals, prompting new state and local laws to keep them away from grieving families. The Supreme Court has agreed to take up a free-speech case related to the funeral protests.
Tucson residents are preparing to line the funeral procession for Green, both to show their support of the family and to block them from seeing the Westboro protest.
"We just want to show the families in Tucson that we're a community that's bound together, through the good and the bad," said Janna Zankich, a 46-year-old dance studio manger.
On Tuesday evening, she planned to gather with dozens of people at Breakout Studios to construct 8- to 10-foot wings that volunteer "angels" would wear along the funeral procession to block the family's view of the protesters.
Residents' grass-roots response to the church's planned protest has spread quickly through social media.
A friend of Zankich's, Christin Gilmer, put up a Facebook page calling for volunteers to help protect the family from picketers from Westboro. Hundreds of volunteers have said they would attend.
Trevor Hill, a University of Arizona junior, is trying to coordinate the myriad groups so they are a calming and peaceful force on Thursday.
"Our goal is to be silent. We don't need to be a distraction — these are funeral processions," he said. "No signs or music, no counter-protests. Do not engage Westboro Baptist. It's just not worth it, and it's equally disrespectful for the family for us to be yelling."
Hill also hopes to show the world a different side of Tucson.
"There have been people claiming Arizona is the center of intolerance, the mecca of bigotry. That is absolutely not true. These are people who live their lives and want to raise families," he said. "It's honestly a very special community."
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 12, 2011 - 08:56am PT
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January 12, 2011 12:00 A.M.
Massacre, Followed by Libel
The origins of Jared Loughner’s delusions are clear: mental illness. What are the origins of Paul Krugman’s?
The charge: The Tucson massacre is a consequence of the “climate of hate” created by Sarah Palin, the Tea Party, Glenn Beck, Obamacare opponents, and sundry other liberal bêtes noires.
The verdict: Rarely in American political discourse has there been a charge so reckless, so scurrilous, and so unsupported by evidence.
As killers go, Jared Loughner is not reticent. Yet among all his writings, postings, videos, and other ravings — and in all the testimony from people who knew him — there is not a single reference to any of these supposed accessories to murder.
Not only is there no evidence that Loughner was impelled to violence by any of those upon whom Paul Krugman, Keith Olbermann, the New York Times, the Tucson sheriff, and other rabid partisans are fixated. There is no evidence that he was responding to anything, political or otherwise, outside of his own head.
A climate of hate? This man lived within his very own private climate. “His thoughts were unrelated to anything in our world,” said the teacher of Loughner’s philosophy class at Pima Community College.
“He was very disconnected from reality,” said classmate Lydian Ali.
“You know how it is when you talk to someone who’s mentally ill and they’re just not there?” said neighbor Jason Johnson. “It was like he was in his own world.”
His ravings, said one high-school classmate, were interspersed with “unnerving, long stupors of silence” during which he would “stare fixedly at his buddies,” reported the Wall Street Journal. His own writings are confused, incoherent, punctuated with private numerology and inscrutable taxonomy. He warned of government brainwashing and thought control through “grammar.” He was obsessed with “conscious dreaming,” a fairly good synonym for hallucinations.
This is not political behavior. These are the signs of a clinical thought disorder — ideas disconnected from one another, incoherent, delusional, detached from reality.
These are all the hallmarks of a paranoid schizophrenic. And a dangerous one. A classmate found him so terrifyingly mentally disturbed that — as she e-mailed friends and family — she expected to see his picture on TV after he had perpetrated a mass murder. This was no idle speculation: In class, “I sit by the door with my purse handy,” she wrote, so that she could get out fast when the shooting began.
Furthermore, the available evidence dates Loughner’s fixation on Rep. Gabrielle Giffords back to at least 2007, when he attended a townhall of hers and felt slighted by her response. In 2007, no one had heard of Sarah Palin. Glenn Beck was still toiling on Headline News. There was no Tea Party or health-care reform. The only climate of hate was the pervasive post-Iraq campaign of vilification of George W. Bush, nicely captured by a New Republic editor who began an article thus: “I hate President George W. Bush. There, I said it.”
Finally, the charge that the metaphors used by Palin and others were inciting violence is ridiculous. Everyone uses warlike metaphors in describing politics. When Barack Obama said at a 2008 fundraiser in Philadelphia, “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” he was hardly inciting violence.
Why? Because fighting and warfare are the most routine of political metaphors. And for obvious reasons. Historically speaking, all democratic politics is a sublimation of the ancient route to power — military conquest. That’s why the language persists. That’s why we speak without any self-consciousness of such things as “battleground states” and “targeting” opponents. Indeed, the very word for an electoral contest — “campaign” — is an appropriation from warfare.
When profiles of Obama’s first chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, noted that he once sent a dead fish to a pollster who displeased him, a characteristically subtle statement carrying more than a whiff of malice and murder, it was considered a charming example of excessive — and creative — political enthusiasm. When Senate candidate Joe Manchin dispensed with metaphor and simply fired a bullet through the cap-and-trade bill — while intoning, “I’ll take dead aim at [it]” — he was hardly assailed with complaints about violations of civil discourse or invitations to murder.
Did Manchin push Loughner over the top? Did Emanuel’s little Mafia imitation create a climate for political violence? The very questions are absurd — unless you’re the New York Times and you substitute the name Sarah Palin.
The origins of Loughner’s delusions are clear: mental illness. What are the origins of Krugman’s?
— Charles Krauthammer is a nationally syndicated columnist. © 2011, The Washington Post Writers Group.
i have another question about krugman: how/why is that you libs give such moral authority to a man who worked for one of your symbols for evil--Enron?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 12, 2011 - 09:50am PT
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— Charles Krauthammer is a nationally syndicated columnist. © 2011, The Washington Post Writers Group.
No Chuckie is a pompous parasite with delusions of intellectuality.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Jan 12, 2011 - 09:58am PT
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Palin said today She said acts like the shootings in Arizona “begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state.”
This is just awesome. It's like being able to put her into a Muslim's shoes and walk for a week. Not that she'll ever get that lesson.
*edit*
Arizona lawmakers pass an emergency measure to stop Westboro Baptist Church from demonstrating at the funeral of Christina Green, 9. Outraged residents make plans to shield her family.
Good god these guys are such as#@&%es. I think they exist just to make slightly more moderate but still dickish religious groups seem banal.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 12, 2011 - 10:13am PT
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I'm not Catholic, but I couldn't agree more with the decent people of Arizona. It's long past time for we Christians to condemn Westboro Baptist and the vicious hate that drives their Pharisaical actions, and to follow that condemnation with action to undo their damage to people, and to the Name of Christ. Although it makes my blood boil, I appreciate your post, Ken M.
John
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 12, 2011 - 10:52am PT
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Sorry I didn't see your posts sooner, but I'm not that sorry because paying work, food and piano practice intervened.
Sorry to get OT, but whatcha working on, John?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 12, 2011 - 11:05am PT
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The discussion needs to stay focused on the extreme right and their vitriol and hate speech.
They are absolutely complicit in this mass murder and assassination attempt.
To say otherwise is to insist on living in denial and delusion.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 12, 2011 - 11:11am PT
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"CBS Poll: Over A Quarter Of Repubs Think Violence Against Government Justified"
the question: "is violence against the government EVER [emphasis mine] justified?"
let's see...how about that little fracas from 1775 to 1783? or that soire 1789-1799? claus von stauffenberg?
well, yes, i do believe that violence against the government is sometimes justified
can we assume, jhedge, that you think violence against the government is NEVER justified, which would include not only the examples mentioned above but also any and all violence directed against the GOVERNMENT of israel?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 12, 2011 - 11:13am PT
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complicit: choosing to be involved in an illegal or questionable act, esp. with others
ok, philo, where's the PROOF that ANYONE is guilty of "choosing to be involved in" this act of mass murder?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 12, 2011 - 11:44am PT
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jhedge, just for the record, do you insist that no dem/lib has ever used violent rhetoric or imagery against repubs?
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jstan
climber
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Jan 12, 2011 - 11:47am PT
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JE:
I was hoping you would weigh in on this. I have ordered Kahn's book through Amazon. Not horribly expensive as books go. $46.
Getting more knowledgeable is always the first task.
Tx
John
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 12, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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To improve Mr. Hedge's reading comprehension, a little exercise.
ABC News
“Though there are no known ties whatsoever between shooting suspect Jared Lee Loughner and Sarah Palin or any part of the Tea Party movement, the “crosshairs” became part of the media coverage of the Tucson shootings from the very beginning.”
LA Times
(23rd paragraph)
“Those seeking a coherent philosophy will probably be frustrated”, said Mark Pitcavage, director of investigative research at the Anti-Defamation League. “So far, most of his beliefs appear to be the product of his own mind, primarily,” he said.
Wall Street Journal
“All he did was play video games and play music,” said Tommy Marriotti, a high school friend. Mr. Marriotti said much of Mr. Loughner’s free time was devoted to the school band. He wasn’t especially political, Mr. Marriotti said, though he expressed frustration with the Bush Administration”
CBS News
(14th paragraph)
Preliminary examinations of Loughner’s web presence suggest he shared passions with both the far left and far right.
The Washington Post
“Turns out the politics espoused by the alleged gunman, Jared Lee Loughner, 22, are difficult to pin down.
The New Yorker
“Judging from his Internet postings, Jared Lee Loughner is a delusional young man whose inner political landscape is a swamp of dystopian novels, left- and right-wing tracts, conspiracy theories, and contempt for his fellow human beings.”
New York Post
“we really don’t know a thing about Loughner’s motivations”
Washington Post
At this point, there’s no evidence that any statement from any politician sent Jared Loughner over the edge.
ABC News
“However, so far there is no evidence that he has any ties to any political group”
Time Magazine
His exact motivation was not clear, but a former classmate described Loughner as a pot-smoking loner who had rambling beliefs about the world.
Fox News
Megyn Kelly: “…I’m wondering is do you have reason to believe that this particular suspected killer was taking in information or was in any way influenced by the vitriol or the rhetoric that you are referring to on the airwaves”
Sherriff Dupnik: “I have to be specific and say that I don’t have that evidence. The investigation is in it’s initial phases. My belief, and I’ve been watching what has been going on in this country for the last 75 years and I’ve been a police officer for over 50 years, There’s no doubt in my mind that when a number of people try to inflame the public that there is going to some consequences from doing that and I think it’s irrresponsible to do that.”
Megyn Kelly: “Is that, Sheriff, it sounds like you’re being very honest, but that’s just your speculation. That’s not saying it’s fact based at this point.”
Dupnik: “That’s my opinion, period.”
CNN
BLITZER: But the question is, is there any evidence that the suspected shooter in this particularcase was a Sarah Palin fan?YELLIN: No.BLITZER: Read Sarah Palin's website?YELLIN: Absolutely not.BLITZER: Watched her FaceBook, her tweets or anything like that?YELLIN: None at all and there is no evidence that this is even inspired by rage other healthcare.
MSNBC/NBC
Some liberals quick to point the finger are linking 22-year-old shooter Jared Loughner to the Tea Party—showing the same lack of restraint and tendency to demonize their ideological opponents that they accuse the right of having.
Bloomberg
The evidence doesn’t suggest that any of the victims of the Jan. 8 shopping center rampage, including U.S. District Judge John Roll and a 9-year-old child, who were both slain, were shot for their politics, right- or left-wing.
Business Insider
“there’s zero evidence that the Arizona tragedy is somehow related to political speech”
Good Morning America
“The shooter’s motives remain unclear. One acquaintance from 2007 described him as liberal.”
Washington Examiner
There’s little evidence he has a coherent ideology. Loughner’s philosophy professor says the 22-year-old acted like “someone whose brains were scrambled” and whose “thoughts were unrelated to anything in our world.”
The Washington Post
“Loughner’s decision to affiliate as an independent rather than a Republican or Democrat would seem to affirm the sense that while he targeted Giffords in the attack, it was not a decision born of a set of deeply held political beliefs that fit neatly into either party.”
And, let me end by giving credit where some credit is due—a few left wing publications also telling the truth about the story.
Mother Jones
Barring any new evidence that directly links Loughner to any political activism or activities, Democrats will have a tough time pinning the blame on extreme rhetoric.
Slate
“around a third of the country that blames rhetoric for the attack, despite evidence that it had nothing to do with it.”
The New Republic
“Conservatives are furious that the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords is being pinned on them. Their indignation is justified. “
Some might say–”Hey, doesn’t this prove that the media IS covering the truth about Loughner? What are you so upset about?”
Mainly because in many of the stories above, these are toss away sentences in an article or column that furthers the storyline. They include one sentence halfway down the page that basically says “oh, by the way, we have no reason to tie these killings with the right. Now, more about the right’s rhetoric and the shooting…”
If you want to complain about our discourse…fine. That’s your right. In fact, it’s part of healthy discourse. But, conservatives have about as much to do with these shootings eggplant parmesan. Absolutely nothing. It would be nice if someone noticed that.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 12, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
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Are we maintaining here that if only one person who someone thinks is not right wing uses violent language, then all that has been happening, is justified?
Has our thinking been distorted that severely?
Anger causes adrenalin production. I think the case can be made that the drug adrenalin has caused more damage to our country than any of the other chemicals presently being used.
A more specific example. Personally I use neither pot nor adrenalin, but I wonder if getting angry over pot has not become more damaging to us than the actual use of pot.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 12, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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He won't retreat, he'll reload.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Jan 12, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
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A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT FROM POWERLINE THIS MORNING:
What would have happened if the Congresswoman with whom Jared Loughner apparently had been more or less obsessed since 2007 had been a Republican? Would Republicans have blamed the Tucson murders on Democrats' "eliminationist rhetoric"? They would have had a relatively good case; to take just one of many examples, they could have pointed to Democratic Congressman Paul Kanjorski, who said that the Republican candidate for Governor of Florida should be put against a wall and shot. I am not aware of a single instance where any Republican politician has said anything so inflammatory. But no: frankly, it would not have occurred to conservatives to try to make a connection between Democrats, no matter how disreputable they may be, and the act of a deranged lunatic in Arizona.
How about the Democrats? Would they have responded to the murder of a Republican Congresswoman by calling on Democrats to tone down their rhetoric and get off the radio or television? Just kidding, obviously.
Here is what would have happened if Loughner had shot only Republicans (we should keep in mind that Judge Roll and, no doubt, others among Loughner's victims, were Republicans). We would be hearing about nothing but gun control. Every Democrat on television who is now talking about a "climate of hate," or "eliminationist rhetoric," would instead be railing against our gun laws.
That is what happened when John Hinckley, a nut more or less on a par with Jared Loughner, tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan. Not a single Democratic politician or pundit linked Hinckley's act to the vicious attacks that the Democrats had launched against Reagan for years leading up to the assassination attempt. No: their focus was exclusively on gun laws. That is exactly what would have happened if Gabrielle Giffords had happened to be a Republican.
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