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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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Coz wrote: Their are some that train their whole life to do routes like GU in good style, to them itīs a problem.
Maybe they should have got their first.
Coz wrote: Sean and Doug decided how it should be climbed not me.
That's obvious and they have taken more than their fair share of PERSONAL attacks for it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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Heck, the hike alone is keeping able folks from checking this route out
That's a sad statement. I have a hard time imagining being able to climb it but not able to walk to it.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 25, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Ooo ooo ooo!!!!
When's it gonna hit 5000?????
Need more popcorn & beer!!!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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Coz, you are beating a dead horse. Hike up, go do the route in style, and let everyone know what you think. Thats what its time for. You do that, everyone will respect your opinion and the whole thing can be put to rest, one way or another.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
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Agree to disagree.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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To Coz (and others who advocate that the route should be chopped):
We have heard how the FA team deliberated much on the impacts of going top down on their route. We've heard their pros and cons, and how they came about their decision. They didn't take the decision lightly, but they did make the decision.
And then we've heard the nay-sayers: Chop it!
Chopping someone's route is a serious action. A just person carefully deliberates such a decision, instead of following a knee-jerk reaction.
I know you don't owe it to me (us), but I'd like to hear the thought process that says that chopping the route is better than leaving it as-is.
Certainly, chopping the rap-bolted section would signal a dislike for the style, and it might stand as a deterrent for others thinking of the same type of action. However, have you thought through what you'd be leaving behind? I've put some thought on it, and because of that I'd like to hear why you think that chopping it is better than leaving the route alone.
If you can't stack up the pros and cons, then advocating that the route should be chopped is akin to a stubborn kid saying "my way or the high way." And that attitude rarely provides for good leadership.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 25, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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Honnold, Hayden and Cosgrove ......
:-)
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pa
climber
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Apr 25, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
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Mmmm...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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the argument doesn't end here, it never ends... it's not a debate but a statement of positions, both well articulated if you boiling them down to the essentials.
On the one hand, the "adventure" of the ground up style of establishing routes; on the other hand the "designing" of a route, careful consideration of all aspects, which includes previewing, rehearsing and top down bolting (when necessary).
They are different aspects of putting up routes.
We argue over where different styles can be applied, obviously people who have been active in developing an area have a lot to say about it... and people putting up new routes do think about the style of the climbs in that area when creating new routes. It's great to hear these debates, the discussions are important for the future of climbing.
But there is no resolution of the debate because the nature of climbing is to take risks and own the consequences...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 25, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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No one has the right to chop a rout unless they first climb it. The only other valid excuse is if a rout squeeze jobs on a previous route that you have climbed. If a new rout is so close to an existing rout that you can clip the bolts from the older climb then yes you could reasonably chop the ofending new rout without actually climbing it. In most other cases if you have not climbed it you are not justified in any way shape or form to chop the thing.
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Apr 25, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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I never thought I would say something like this, but can somebody PLEASE send LEB in here to ruin this thread? Please, help us all.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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"We are the ones that OWN the Park."
Wow, what sauce have you been drinking?
I own my home. And you know what's nice about that? I don't have to pay to go inside and I can stay for as long as I like. I can walk around with a beer in my hand, and I can play my stereo at 2am.
Try to tell the folks at the gate that you're not going to pay because you own the place. Then try to tell the nice rangers at C4 that you didn't bother to check in, you know, because you OWN the place. What a joke...
Chief, wouldn't it be more appropriate to take your anger about the taxes you pay to the folks that are really squandering large sums of taxpayer dollars? I mean, come on--you're barking at folks that had good intentions to clean up their mess, but their plans went bad, so some guys with federal jobs got paid a few hundred bucks.
Compare that to folks who knowingly steal million$ from the federal gov't, and don't say Thank You Taxpayers. Those are the folks to whom you should aim your anger, not some climbers who have themselves done a bunch of community service.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
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maybe you should stop barking and offer to help out the climbing community when these sorts of projects need help.
many people on this thread offered to help carry out left overs from the project, which was more extensive then a couple of guys jaunting out to do a long route.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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Come on Chief
Spitting in peoples faces (virtually) while demanding they apologize to you is no way to get a dialog or an apology. It's obvious you wouldn't accept it anyway but just use the admission to further beat the guy down. You're just indulging your righteous anger.
Plus, I've seem more "Mia Culpa" on this thread than about any thread in supertopo ever. DR has taken heat for plenty he really either didn't do or didn't have control over even.
Enough is enough, it's years later.
Peace
karl
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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^^^ Damn straight Chief. Not to mention the route would have been there for all of a few days.
This just seems very irresponsible on behalf of all parties involved.
I wonder where all of those peeps talkin smack on those Watkins litter bugs are. All I remember is "It's a travesty, all of those rotting ropes, gear etc..."
Wonder who picked up that shitshow?
No excuse for leaving mass amounts of trash in the backcountry. Pawning the cleanup off to others, paid or not is bad style.
A low down dirty shame it is.
Mucci
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
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have any of you bitching about this route climbed it?
Thought not. STFU
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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Neither have Sean nor Doug or anyone else on this "Project" climbed the route, start to finish in one shot. That is what really gets me about this whole deal.
Well if this was in Squamish the first ascent would still be up for grabs.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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Doug for the record your apology to all wilderness lovers (that the chief posted above but edited out, gee why) is enough for me I don't need another one as a taxpayer lol.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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We're on the brink of getting rid of T*R* and you guys are arguing about this? Someone should be offering to pack her sh#t. I'll chip in for gas.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:44am PT
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Chief - I happen to agree with at least your general points...but holy crap you can be a blowhard!
I might have a problem with the route...but I'd rather share a campfire with your "enemies" in this one sided "debate" of yours. Maybe even crack a beer with them while we hashed out opinions on style and back-country ethics. Civilly.
I've heard you're a good guy in person...but your internet persona ain't winning anyone over to your cause. Not in my opinion anyway. If you actually want to win this "battle" of yours...that might be worth considering.
DR manned up and apologized for the trash. Man up and realize you've passed the stage of getting your point across and have crossed into chest-beating, self-righteous spray.
But then...you've heard all this before. Never seems to make an impression...
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