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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:09am PT
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If you sh#t on a sacred spot, does it really matter how you did it?
If you sh#t in the temple one time or ten times, you still sh#t in the temple.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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That's right Josh. Seanster has not climbed---no one has climbed---the line entirely free. Nor has the route been climbed as a whole.
Chickenskinner posted (on Sean's behalf) the topo upthread. That post is about 1/4 of the way up from this post. And yes there is A0 on it---on pitch #13 and #15.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:28am PT
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Because wilderness is one of the last places where there can still be any true adventure or sense of the unknown preserved.
Well, as long as we have women, I don't think we have to worry about losing any sense of the unknown. [ducking shoe ...]
But seriously, excellent post dustonian. That really sums up the conundrum, without over-the-top glove throwing.
I don't see GU as opening a Pandora's Box, giving a green light to anybody who wants to rap bolt in an alpine setting. Heck, the hike alone is keeping able folks from checking this route out, and they don't have to do any heavy lifting. Folks who FA routes of this magnitude aren't just fresh gym graduates or folks without a vision of what they are doing.
Certainly, the route has an asterisk next to it. Only time will tell if the asterisk shines, or if it is made of soot.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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Scott wrote: BDA, In all respect, what have you ever climbed in the Valley? Have you ever done a FA ground up of a bigwall. Sorry in advance if you have, but I think you really need,"to walk the walk, before you talk the talk."
I have led ground up 5.12's drilling on lead on walls about 700-800 feet. I have climbed in the Valley and in the Meadows and have done a number of ground up shorter routes to 12+ in Colorado, New Mexico, AZ and other areas.
Like other I have a right to my opinions. I never thought climbing was worth dying over (I have great kids and wonderful wife) and I don't continue to live in the 70's when it comes to how climbers should climb or act.
Maybe your life is some what incomplete as to dictate how others should climb and live...mine isn't...in all due respect.
As to "walk the walk"...I raised a wonderful family, been married for 35 years, consider myself a great father and husband and loyal to my friends. Providing for my family was way more important than climbing vacations or placing some self indulgent sport above them. I somehow still managed to climb 1600 new routes, repeat a bunch of hard and run-out routes, write some guidebooks and donate my time to working on trails, clean-up's and hardware replacement.
So in real life I have walk the walk...what about you?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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Coz wrote: Their are some that train their whole life to do routes like GU in good style, to them itīs a problem.
Maybe they should have got their first.
Coz wrote: Sean and Doug decided how it should be climbed not me.
That's obvious and they have taken more than their fair share of PERSONAL attacks for it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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Heck, the hike alone is keeping able folks from checking this route out
That's a sad statement. I have a hard time imagining being able to climb it but not able to walk to it.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 25, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Ooo ooo ooo!!!!
When's it gonna hit 5000?????
Need more popcorn & beer!!!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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Coz, you are beating a dead horse. Hike up, go do the route in style, and let everyone know what you think. Thats what its time for. You do that, everyone will respect your opinion and the whole thing can be put to rest, one way or another.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
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Agree to disagree.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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To Coz (and others who advocate that the route should be chopped):
We have heard how the FA team deliberated much on the impacts of going top down on their route. We've heard their pros and cons, and how they came about their decision. They didn't take the decision lightly, but they did make the decision.
And then we've heard the nay-sayers: Chop it!
Chopping someone's route is a serious action. A just person carefully deliberates such a decision, instead of following a knee-jerk reaction.
I know you don't owe it to me (us), but I'd like to hear the thought process that says that chopping the route is better than leaving it as-is.
Certainly, chopping the rap-bolted section would signal a dislike for the style, and it might stand as a deterrent for others thinking of the same type of action. However, have you thought through what you'd be leaving behind? I've put some thought on it, and because of that I'd like to hear why you think that chopping it is better than leaving the route alone.
If you can't stack up the pros and cons, then advocating that the route should be chopped is akin to a stubborn kid saying "my way or the high way." And that attitude rarely provides for good leadership.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 25, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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Honnold, Hayden and Cosgrove ......
:-)
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pa
climber
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Apr 25, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
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Mmmm...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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the argument doesn't end here, it never ends... it's not a debate but a statement of positions, both well articulated if you boiling them down to the essentials.
On the one hand, the "adventure" of the ground up style of establishing routes; on the other hand the "designing" of a route, careful consideration of all aspects, which includes previewing, rehearsing and top down bolting (when necessary).
They are different aspects of putting up routes.
We argue over where different styles can be applied, obviously people who have been active in developing an area have a lot to say about it... and people putting up new routes do think about the style of the climbs in that area when creating new routes. It's great to hear these debates, the discussions are important for the future of climbing.
But there is no resolution of the debate because the nature of climbing is to take risks and own the consequences...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 25, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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No one has the right to chop a rout unless they first climb it. The only other valid excuse is if a rout squeeze jobs on a previous route that you have climbed. If a new rout is so close to an existing rout that you can clip the bolts from the older climb then yes you could reasonably chop the ofending new rout without actually climbing it. In most other cases if you have not climbed it you are not justified in any way shape or form to chop the thing.
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Apr 25, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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I never thought I would say something like this, but can somebody PLEASE send LEB in here to ruin this thread? Please, help us all.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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"We are the ones that OWN the Park."
Wow, what sauce have you been drinking?
I own my home. And you know what's nice about that? I don't have to pay to go inside and I can stay for as long as I like. I can walk around with a beer in my hand, and I can play my stereo at 2am.
Try to tell the folks at the gate that you're not going to pay because you own the place. Then try to tell the nice rangers at C4 that you didn't bother to check in, you know, because you OWN the place. What a joke...
Chief, wouldn't it be more appropriate to take your anger about the taxes you pay to the folks that are really squandering large sums of taxpayer dollars? I mean, come on--you're barking at folks that had good intentions to clean up their mess, but their plans went bad, so some guys with federal jobs got paid a few hundred bucks.
Compare that to folks who knowingly steal million$ from the federal gov't, and don't say Thank You Taxpayers. Those are the folks to whom you should aim your anger, not some climbers who have themselves done a bunch of community service.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
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maybe you should stop barking and offer to help out the climbing community when these sorts of projects need help.
many people on this thread offered to help carry out left overs from the project, which was more extensive then a couple of guys jaunting out to do a long route.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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Come on Chief
Spitting in peoples faces (virtually) while demanding they apologize to you is no way to get a dialog or an apology. It's obvious you wouldn't accept it anyway but just use the admission to further beat the guy down. You're just indulging your righteous anger.
Plus, I've seem more "Mia Culpa" on this thread than about any thread in supertopo ever. DR has taken heat for plenty he really either didn't do or didn't have control over even.
Enough is enough, it's years later.
Peace
karl
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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^^^ Damn straight Chief. Not to mention the route would have been there for all of a few days.
This just seems very irresponsible on behalf of all parties involved.
I wonder where all of those peeps talkin smack on those Watkins litter bugs are. All I remember is "It's a travesty, all of those rotting ropes, gear etc..."
Wonder who picked up that shitshow?
No excuse for leaving mass amounts of trash in the backcountry. Pawning the cleanup off to others, paid or not is bad style.
A low down dirty shame it is.
Mucci
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
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have any of you bitching about this route climbed it?
Thought not. STFU
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