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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 24, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
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Two or maybe three years since the FA...no repeat..no heavy traffic/no traffic at all and some trash that they clean up in maybe no so of a timely matter...WTF is the big deal??
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 24, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
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Hey there Patrick, I wasn't making some pointed remark at you, more making a play on words and trotting a phrase I've used with my kids. I guess I needed to stick a smiley face in there, darned internet communication.
Deucey, John's doing great in Flagstaff, I just talked to him yesterday. We're planning an old fart's assault on the Valley the end of May, climbing whatever we can scrabble up.
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Apr 24, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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I like how this thread reminded me that we're not that many generations down the road from burning witches at the stake.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 24, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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That was funny.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 01:12am PT
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Bob D'A, let's keep this clear. There has not been a first ascent yet. This amazing route has only been done in two completely separate segments and understandably. What a huge climb it is. So a First Ascent is awaited.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Apr 25, 2010 - 01:23am PT
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Chop it or STFU. Love you guys.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2010 - 08:53am PT
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peter wrote: So a First Ascent is awaited.
I think you mean a first continuous ascent. Sean and Doug put all the bolts in, did all the work and I believe Sean climbed all the pitches free.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 25, 2010 - 09:46am PT
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Bruce Kay wrote:
Apr 24, 2010 - 10:26am PT
i ask again, can different values coexist on the same crag?
Half Dome is not a "crag" any more than Cerro Torre is a crag! A crag is a relatively "insignificant" cliff NOT in a wilderness alpine setting, something developed with convenience in mind, something you can even walk around to the top of sometimes to set up topropes if so inclined. These guys had to use the NPS cables when they did that on GU, not to mention flaunt a lot of wilderness regulations in the process of development.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2010 - 09:59am PT
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Bruce...yes they can and do in a number of climbing areas in the US and around the world, including Yosemite.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:00am PT
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Yes, in terms of crags absolutely different values can exist. In tems of alpine formations like Half Dome, I think most of us would prefer not. Save the rap bolting for the "crags" as we call them down here!
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:27am PT
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Because wilderness is one of the last places where there can still be any true adventure or sense of the unknown preserved. Maybe there would have been a ground-up stance and hook drilling renaissance in twenty years, who knows? It isn't unreasonable that some very strong and bold young climbers (Honnold-Houlding types come to mind) could have climbed this route ground-up. But now one of the plumb lines has fallen to the demands of convenience and ease... in a sense stolen from future climbers and replaced with ego and magazine-friendly braggadocio because a few people were impatient to make a route go all the way to the top.
It would be nice to leave a little bit of the traditional mystery, excitement and risk of climbing on at least a few pieces of stone in the world. And alpine granite formations like Half Dome, with no real sub-5th-class "natural route" to the summit (except of course, the NPS cables), are obvious candidates for the traditional ground-up ethic. Call it community consensus, or whatever you want. But for some very tangible reasons this route rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Is it fair to ignore all of these people's feelings just because a couple of guys felt like they needed to force a sport route with up to 18 bolts per pitch to the top of what is for many a very sacred formation? Is this "community"? I'm not advocating removal of the route by any stretch, I am just saying it shouldn't have been celebrated in quite such a self-congratulatory fashion in the various media.
I count Sean as a friend and he has put up hundreds of amazing routes in Yosemite, many of which are among my favorites anywhere. I know he and Doug had mixed feelings about this route, and I'm sure they can appreciate that the climbing community does too. I have no doubt that Growing Up, like all of Sean's routes, is a really "fun" line with many classic pitches (especially the first 8), but there is a sort of philosophical flaw to it, a whiff of hubris, and it rings false from an artistic standpoint--because new-routing is an art after all, not a science. In the end this route should stand as a warning for future route developers of what not to do, and god forbid not a model for emulation in future new routes on alpine granite in wilderness areas.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:37am PT
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I found a topo of the route so long ago I don't remember where I got it. Anyways, it shows two sections of A0. One is a pendulum and the other is a bolt ladder. As a result, I don't think that Bob D's claim is accurate that Sean has freed the whole line. Who else would have written the topo?
Josh
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:57am PT
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Just to clarify a minor point dustonian. We free soloed the slabs about twenty feet left of the cables and didn't touch them. Even Doug. I had a 200 meter rope in my backpack. It was not easy.
People were absolutely freaking out.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:59am PT
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Wow, burly!! Because it was crowded or because it was more fun that way?
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:04am PT
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Maybe just to make it fun. Sean had never been on the summit before, as he was always saving it for a major new route. So it was an effort to make it more worthwhile.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:06am PT
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That is a fascinating twist to the tale! It was as if he wanted to go ground-up, but knew his time was running out in the Valley. I know the feeling and succumbed to the same pressure on a beautiful couple of short routes I developed last year. If I ever have time someday I'm tempted to go take the bolts out or at least aid up the route for the hell of it--or like you said, because maybe it's more fun that way. Bottom line is, it's tough to have a real life and climb everything ground-up. It's painstakingly slow, sketchy, and can sometimes be frustrating as all hell. But in the end you're usually glad you did it that way.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:09am PT
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If you sh#t on a sacred spot, does it really matter how you did it?
If you sh#t in the temple one time or ten times, you still sh#t in the temple.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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That's right Josh. Seanster has not climbed---no one has climbed---the line entirely free. Nor has the route been climbed as a whole.
Chickenskinner posted (on Sean's behalf) the topo upthread. That post is about 1/4 of the way up from this post. And yes there is A0 on it---on pitch #13 and #15.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:28am PT
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Because wilderness is one of the last places where there can still be any true adventure or sense of the unknown preserved.
Well, as long as we have women, I don't think we have to worry about losing any sense of the unknown. [ducking shoe ...]
But seriously, excellent post dustonian. That really sums up the conundrum, without over-the-top glove throwing.
I don't see GU as opening a Pandora's Box, giving a green light to anybody who wants to rap bolt in an alpine setting. Heck, the hike alone is keeping able folks from checking this route out, and they don't have to do any heavy lifting. Folks who FA routes of this magnitude aren't just fresh gym graduates or folks without a vision of what they are doing.
Certainly, the route has an asterisk next to it. Only time will tell if the asterisk shines, or if it is made of soot.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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Scott wrote: BDA, In all respect, what have you ever climbed in the Valley? Have you ever done a FA ground up of a bigwall. Sorry in advance if you have, but I think you really need,"to walk the walk, before you talk the talk."
I have led ground up 5.12's drilling on lead on walls about 700-800 feet. I have climbed in the Valley and in the Meadows and have done a number of ground up shorter routes to 12+ in Colorado, New Mexico, AZ and other areas.
Like other I have a right to my opinions. I never thought climbing was worth dying over (I have great kids and wonderful wife) and I don't continue to live in the 70's when it comes to how climbers should climb or act.
Maybe your life is some what incomplete as to dictate how others should climb and live...mine isn't...in all due respect.
As to "walk the walk"...I raised a wonderful family, been married for 35 years, consider myself a great father and husband and loyal to my friends. Providing for my family was way more important than climbing vacations or placing some self indulgent sport above them. I somehow still managed to climb 1600 new routes, repeat a bunch of hard and run-out routes, write some guidebooks and donate my time to working on trails, clean-up's and hardware replacement.
So in real life I have walk the walk...what about you?
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