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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 19, 2019 - 11:57am PT
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Do you ever have vivid premonitions of things, before they happen?
Events that could not be possibly anticipated/predicted by any amount of regular mental effort, logic, analysis or even "intuition".
Do external events visit you in your night dreams before they happen?
This is a good place to start.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 19, 2019 - 12:46pm PT
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There are interesting cultural differences in near-death experiences. They cast doubt on the possibility that near-death experiences are evidence of a world beyond and different from this one.
Not necessarily MH2. If there were a world(s) beyond the one we know then it should follow that such a set of operating principles responsible for mediating something like an actual energy/information transfer interface between both, or many such worlds,, would take into account such incidentals as cultural or language differences in order to convey that critical information.
Remember the standard scifi movie scenes in which the ET is speaking and yet is understood concurrently in all the particular languages? Clearly a universal translator at work.
As for people in India having different NDE's, of course culture plays a role. Some children under three who have had NDE's in the West, describe seeing the light as meeting Santa Claus, which makes perfect sense from their perspective.
This would of course apply in Jan's example. Moreover this might dovetail into Jung's collective unconscious. Exhibit A in Jung's explication of his collective unconscious were of course the repeating forms and themes experienced in dreams by his patients. Such iconic reiterative mythological theme elements as serpents, devils, headless horseman, worm Ouroboros, and so on. What I think Jung underestimated was the degree to which these forms/themes were held in common not because they issued from a collective unconscious but rather from a collective conscious culture, transmitted intact over many centuries, despite many cultural costume changes.
For as we now know the dreams people often report in western culture today no longer or uncommonly contain these archaic forms. This is a point Joseph Campbell never fully addressed except to state that pop culture forms as Star Wars were obvious reiterations of the hero quest/redemption. This does not address in any meaningful way Jungian assertions as to the collective unconscious.
My question among others is why these and other mystical experiences evolved if we are only material beings. What physical purpose have they served or are they just the residual result of a universal physical process ? There are many interesting questions of biology involved even if you don't want to go beyond the physical
A good summation, Jan
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 19, 2019 - 01:02pm PT
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I like that Ed brought up the word, homunculus. It seems to me that this is what the non-scientists on this thread believe in. They can't get their heads around the idea of mind evolving from and consisting of parts. In the end, mind emerges from molecules. Even more fundamental than brain and memory are molecules.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 01:08pm PT
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If there were a world(s) beyond the one we know then it should follow that such a set of operating principles responsible for mediating something like an actual energy transfer interface between both, or many such worlds,, would take into account such incidentals as cultural or language differences in order to convey critical information.
That could be true but to me it borders on special pleading. If there are experiences beyond death I would not presume to guess at the operating principles. We should look carefully at what we can learn about this world and let other worlds wait until we get there. My opinion.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 19, 2019 - 01:14pm PT
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jstan: Better hurry up and reach a conclusion folks.
I'd say that would be a mistake. Hurrying rarely helps any complex activity. (See, "The Mythical Man Month" by Brooks.) As for the need to come to conclusions, I suggest there are certain efforts that closure kills--especially when growth or development is involved.
What's the conclusion of your life?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 01:20pm PT
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What's the conclusion of your life?
Ha ha! What do you mean, Mike? Or do you not care what you say and what it means?
And where is your sense of humor? John Stannard has a good one.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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May 19, 2019 - 01:22pm PT
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Mike L, putting together a project today I ran across a quote from the climber, Bruce Bindner, part of the Climb the Wyde with Pride group.
"Climbing for some is not a hobby, but a way of life, a part of a center.
Or a way to let go of the center and just be. For some climbing shows us
not only how small and insignificant we are, but also how rare and
precious." Bruce Bindner, 1955-2009
I like that phrase, "just be". For me it means to release the mind from all the myriad "requirements" of a life and learn to be. Be, a two letter word that holds the ticket to life. And I don't mean to sit in a lotus position and chant. Be contains the key to ones individual universe.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2019 - 01:26pm PT
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Even more fundamental than brain and memory are molecules.
More fundamental than molecules are particles, and more fundamental than those are quarks, and more fundamental than those are void, out of which all of these things spring. Few acknowledge that all parts emerged from nothing at all. But wait, there's unmanifested potential in that their void. And there's no such "thing" as a "wave," which is a mathematical representation of ... what? Collective motion? Propagation of energy? The woo it seems is the idea that stuff is generated from stuff by way of a timebound process.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 19, 2019 - 01:37pm PT
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That could be true but to me it borders on special pleading. If there are experiences beyond death I would not presume to guess at the operating principles. We should look carefully at what we can learn about this world and let other worlds wait until we get there. My opinion.
Well, that approach might work-- if you could ultimately pull it off.
The frontiers of knowing are often pushed forward by presuming to guess. A lot of physicists are sitting around presuming to guess about dark matter, for instance. Humans will always do this. No amount of common sense expressed complacently or otherwise will ever remedy certain endeavors, or succeed in proscribing their current boundaries.
BTW, what is "special pleading"?
At this time I'd like to advance the "What is Mind?" as being, in part, what we are doing right now.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 01:43pm PT
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more fundamental than those are void, out of which all of these things spring.
Our conclusion: Mind is void.
Or springs from it, anyway.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 01:47pm PT
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Well, that approach might work-- if you could ultimately pull it off.
I can pull off endeavours that require me to do nothing with enviable ease. Whether it is to just be or to not wonder about the afterlife, easy-peasy. It's a bit harder to do something but I can manage that, too, sometimes.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 19, 2019 - 01:50pm PT
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I can pull off endeavours that require me to do nothing with enviable ease. Whether it is to just be or to not wonder about the afterlife, easy-peasy. It's a bit harder to do something but I can manage that, too, sometimes.
I can see exactly why you have been attracted to the question: What is Mind?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 19, 2019 - 02:17pm PT
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" and more fundamental than those are void, out of which all of these things spring"
Is there more than one void? How do you know the void is empty? But nice poetic touch, like the Old Testament.
You guys need to consider whether to continue this discussion on another site or let it go. Not FB, IMO. (I've started reacquainting myself with MP, but the atmosphere there may not be the best for old farts.)
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 19, 2019 - 02:20pm PT
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Once someone experiences contact with the "other" world (and I don't mean any kind of drug use being involved) they realize that the question "what is mind" is un-answerable in the limited language of human material world (science), therefore pointless.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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May 19, 2019 - 02:25pm PT
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formerclimber, your words "limited language of human material world" strike a deep cord. If I had a genie wish it would be to deepen and extend the words we have access to. It does limit us so.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 19, 2019 - 02:45pm PT
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Is there more than one void?
First there's the void, then there's the universe that contains the void, then there's the universe that contains both the void and the universe that contains the void (in that order). If we keep going like this, we get the Von Neumann ordinals!
It's been great shooting the bull with you Mr. Gill! And MH2 and Ed and Mike L. and all the rest. Of course, the whole thing never would have existed without Largo. May he keep searching for what he doesn't want answered!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 09:23pm PT
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If we keep going like this, we get the Von Neuman ordinals!
Marvelous! Keep going!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 09:25pm PT
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Thanks for your patience and great uncommon sense, Jim.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 09:42pm PT
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If I had a genie wish it would be to deepen and extend the words we have access to
Ah, but a man's (or a woman's) reach should exceed his or her grasp, or what's a heaven for?
Remember that it isn't the words alone but the listener also that limit us.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43745/andrea-del-sarto
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 20, 2019 - 06:22am PT
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MH2: I can pull off endeavors that require me to do nothing with enviable ease.
You're special.
Most people who've studied the notion argue that doing nothing is quite difficult to experience and "achieve." The whole idea of achievement in the conversation is deeply problematical. (See, "Trying Not to Try: Ancient China, Modern Science, and the Power of Spontaneity, by Slingerland.)
You could also ask someone who's experienced in meditation about that idea. In fact, it might be proper to respond to your post with, "It's not important."
Be well.
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