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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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May 17, 2019 - 09:01am PT
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due to heavy material brainwashing
The source of this is in late 1800 Psychology. Pavlov and Wundt determined there there is no evidence of soul or psyche. All is material and man is an animal. They were also under political pressure to prove this result so that "lesser" humans could be justafiably exterminated.
That was the point where psychology went off the rails and has been off the rails as a pseduo science ever since.
Just because they have professors in universities writing books and playing with rats does not mean they have a science. All they do is catogorize things.
They have no axioms, no fundamentals. Only guesses at how the mind works. Theories come and go every few years. They keep poking at the meat brain and they can't figure it out.
They can only guess at what causes the problems and they can cure nothing.
Meanwhile, others who do have a workable technology are vilified and slandered.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2019 - 09:39am PT
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the idea of homunculus which can "exit the car" is an old one that probably orginates from the experience of observing the world through sight, the dualism referred to as the Cartesian theatre.
just what the homunculus is, and how it goes about this task, kicks the can down one level... but I'm interested in what wbraun has to say about it from his "narrative standpoint."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 17, 2019 - 12:00pm PT
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Thank god we finally got to the bottom of what is mind before the forum shutdown!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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May 17, 2019 - 12:02pm PT
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It took a while..... :) Minds are all wired differently and that's what's so cool. Tho I hesitate to post that thought with such an elite group of minds.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 17, 2019 - 12:05pm PT
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Wow, can't believe the forum is shutting down. Haven't been writing much lately but I still check it out once in a while. Really going to miss writing on this thread and some of the other ones as well. Great folks with challenging ideas and always fun... just really damn sorry to hear. Best to all and adios.
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WBraun
climber
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May 17, 2019 - 12:48pm PT
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Minds are all wired differently
No, they're not.
It's the living entities consciousness that's developed differently.
From single cell up to humans and even among humans have different levels of developed consciousness ......
https://i.imgur.com/z5WqucT.jpg
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 17, 2019 - 01:09pm PT
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Maybe you shoulda titled it: What Mind Is/Isn’t?
Could have been some conclusions drawn;)
Anyway it was a great run. I learned lots from you ladies & gents!
i never meant any harm spoken, i’m jus stOOpid:)
Thank YouS
FALLING😿
Michael Sanderson
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 17, 2019 - 01:54pm PT
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Move the thread to another site? Mountain Project, for example. My suggestion about the AAC initiating a forum hasn't gone anywhere. I doubt they have the expertise to do it since they have had problems with their existing site.
You can find standard climbing content on several forums, but this thread is different.
Is there any interest in continuing WisM elsewhere? Maybe not.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 17, 2019 - 04:00pm PT
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Is there any interest in continuing WisM elsewhere? Maybe not.
Count me in.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 17, 2019 - 04:19pm PT
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Me too, and I'm touched by your humanity.
Now, back to business. My really last final answer (on this forum) -- Mind is memories. I've often posted about simplicity and brevity. This answer exceeds my expectations.
The details are that memories take the form of immediate, working, short-term, and long-term. All come in to play at every instant as the world comes streaming at you.
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Klimmer2.0
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
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May 17, 2019 - 04:39pm PT
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Mind is conscientiousness. Being. Our memories. Our thoughts. Our dreams. Our hopes. It's who we are.
We are. We exist. We will always be even afterwards. There is eternity ahead of us. We don't go away. We won't have this physical body but we will look like we do now but in our prime. Perhaps mid 30s? Our bodies will be able to morph from the spiritual to the physical and back again over and over. Yeshua showed us what our new bodies will be like after he resurrected and continued to show himself for the next 40 days. He talked with people. He visited with them. He ate with them. He could walk through walls. He could appear and then disappear at will.
We will be able to talk, think, dream, eat and have true relationships with others and with G-d. We will be able to fly, climb, swim, or do whatever. We will be immortal. Not G-d's equal, but sons and daughters of G-d.
G-d created us in the womb and knew us before we ever knew ourselves. We will continue ... with G-d or without G-d. I want to continue to be with G-d. The other option is really no option.
I can't wait to free solo all the routes on El Cap. Fall? No problem. Levitate and get back on and finish the climb. It's going to be wonderful.
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Trump
climber
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May 17, 2019 - 07:47pm PT
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We’re working to a deadline people! It’s time for more strident beliefs.
Might as well believe whatever it is that you happen to believe is true is in reality actually factually true. Ya can’t take em with you when you go.
We’re gonna be working to this deadline until we’re dead.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2019 - 08:59pm PT
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PLoS Biol 17(5): e3000241. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.3000241
Islands of retroelements are major components of Drosophila centromeres
Ching-Ho Chang , Ankita Chavan , Jason Palladino , Xiaolu Wei, Nuno M. C. Martins, Bryce Santinello, Chin-Chi Chen, Jelena Erceg, Brian J. Beliveau, Chao-Ting Wu, Amanda M. Larracuente , Barbara G. Mellone
Abstract
Centromeres are essential chromosomal regions that mediate kinetochore assembly and spindle attachments during cell division. Despite their functional conservation, centromeres are among the most rapidly evolving genomic regions and can shape karyotype evolution and speciation across taxa. Although significant progress has been made in identifying centromere-associated proteins, the highly repetitive centromeres of metazoans have been refractory to DNA sequencing and assembly, leaving large gaps in our understanding of their functional organization and evolution. Here, we identify the sequence composition and organization of the centromeres of Drosophila melanogaster by combining long-read sequencing, chromatin immunoprecipitation for the centromeric histone CENP-A, and high-resolution chromatin fiber imaging. Contrary to previous models that heralded satellite repeats as the major functional components, we demonstrate that functional centromeres form on islands of complex DNA sequences enriched in retroelements that are flanked by large arrays of satellite repeats. Each centromere displays distinct size and arrangement of its DNA elements but is similar in composition overall. We discover that a specific retroelement, G2/Jockey-3, is the most highly enriched sequence in CENP-A chromatin and is the only element shared among all centromeres. G2/Jockey-3 is also associated with CENP-A in the sister species D. simulans, revealing an unexpected conservation despite the reported turnover of centromeric satellite DNA. Our work reveals the DNA sequence identity of the active centromeres of a premier model organism and implicates retroelements as conserved features of centromeric DNA.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 18, 2019 - 06:54am PT
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Ed: . . . the obvious problem that chemical "alteration" of the brain seems to have such an affect on consciousness.
Hell, Ed, I stub my toe, and it has an effect on my consciousness. I think you mean that some "thing" turns on and off consciousness--or that's what appears to happen. I'd say that if something turned off consciousness, a person would be dead. (But that's a speculation, if there ever was one.)
I've volunteered for tests of different drugs for anesthesia at a VA hospital about 20 years ago, and I only report what was told to me at the time. Since then, every time I get put under, I have little conversations with those people when they come around to interview me just before an operation. (I've had my share of those.) There are more than one narrative about anesthesia. One of those guys told me a couple of years ago that they really don't know what happens, but that "it works!" Reminds me of your views. It's just an interesting conversation to me.
Spider: . . . where [1800s] psychology went off the rails [with Pavlov and Wundt] and has been off the rails as a pseduo science ever since.
Some have argued that as soon as psychology tried to graduate to a "real science" with experiments and metrics is where it went wrong. We might have the same "problem" expressed here by some people on this thread. Is what we are something that can be categorized, defined, and discretely measured? Can an object or a thing be a subject? The failure of psychology might be an indicator of how intellectually murky the topic is of being, psyche, consciousness, awareness are.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 18, 2019 - 07:09am PT
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I tried to find a video of cell mitosis. I could not find one without animation or music. The grainy through-the-microscope movie of cell division in science class was one of those, "Whoa! What's going on here?" moments for me.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 18, 2019 - 07:16am PT
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I stub my toe, and it has an effect on my consciousness.
We have a degree of physical understanding of what happens when you stub your toe. Your toe is moving and comes up against an object that stops it suddenly. The fact that stubbing your toe has an effect on your consciousness encourages us that we may gain a more complete physical understanding of your consciousness.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 18, 2019 - 08:22am PT
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LOL
You can say concepts do everything then.
Word jugglery ..... it's what gross materialists do when they are ultimately clueless ......
Yeah, it's really funny to read all the materialists' blubber...
My own parents had been science professors/researchers in top school (some other family members too... almost every one related to me got PhD in hard sciences for multiple generations)... I know that most of the high level scientists are NOT materialists. One has to be of limited intelligence not to realize permanent, hard limitations of the ultimate capacity of human intelligence, such as to understand itself and the world. Most of this thread is void air shaking...it could make 'sense' only as a smoke screen to secure some monetary grants, not much more than this.
Unfortunately, science and technocratic views are becoming the new, harmful, mass religion. Nature will sort it out, though. Icarus and his wax wings...
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 18, 2019 - 10:03am PT
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I'd say that if something turned off consciousness, a person would be dead
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/life-after-life-does-consciousness-continue-after-our-brain-dies
https://www.newsweek.com/where-do-you-go-when-you-die-increasing-signs-human-consciousness-after-death-800443
So let us posit that these remarkably similar experiences of consciousness can be explained by the usual suspect explanation: they are near death hallucinations, recoverable by current resuscitation techniques.
Why do these hallucinations seem to involve highly similair components from person to person? And why do they even occur at all? Is their some degree of survival advantage to near death experiences of this sort? Is this merely a last ditch strategy by the dying brain to keep a base level of consciousness running as a sort of background program so that when life is restored, if it is, a fundamental degree of continuity is thus preserved? Perhaps the brain like a car battery cannot be allowed to thoroughly lose its charge lest it forfeit its ability to start the engine?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 18, 2019 - 10:18am PT
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Sheesh,
Consciousness, whatever its aggregate or form, turns off in bits and pieces or as a whole just like myriad other (system or component) functions do, e.g., hunger, sexual lust, thirst, jealousy, a desire for revenge, sensory and motor apparatus, whatever.
Easy to grok with the proper background - unless you're like many a religious supernaturalist who hasn't thought things through and actually believes that a (immaterial, fleshless) soul itself experiences the likes of sexual orientation, hunger, jealousy, rage, temptation, desire, disgust...
Like Hartouni and others have said (probably 1,000 times) it only kicks the can down to another level.
And if the soul, ghost or spirit of our counterfactual world is amorphous because all its structure and function has been stripped away or left behind (by vacating its biological body) then what good is it? what meaning or importance or significance would it have?
If it's got no heart, no memory, no sexual orientation or sexual lust or sexual gender? If it's got no desire to eat cheesecake (or in the case of a cow, grass) or no interest to climb a mountain? If it's got no disgust for Trump? or for maggots or for vomit? I don't know, that sounds not only pretty amorphous (i.e., without shape or structure) but pretty... boring. Imo.
Not one supernaturalist or woo jockey ever - here or abroad - has ever answered this question substantively, realistically, sincerely - probably because they have never really thought it through or because they simply don't care.
"Mind is what brain does". Ring a bell?
I know that most of the high level scientists are NOT materialists.
lol
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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2019 - 02:17pm PT
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HFCS = as usual, your typical clueless mental speculator guessing all over the place on sh!t he knows absolutely zero about.
Does zero actual research on sh!t he knows nothing about but simultaneously masquerades as a know it all.
Terrible scientist and extremely narrow-minded biased brainwashed fool and that's why he's so afraid of his identity being known .....
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