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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 12, 2019 - 10:53am PT
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So far, seems like the only benefits of human getting the gift of "mind" was the destruction of the planet, brutal wars and reduced level of enjoyment of life/more anguish and depression. An average wild animal is happier and living much fuller life than average human. So much to "mind". Mind is a plague. Gods of Nature will take this gift away, eventually... humankind will have the fate of Prometheus.
Gods of nature?
Despite humans many problems- that we are inherently flawed- is not one of them.
That being said, it is clear that human technology is central to our nature as a species, and it represents the core of our relationship to the cosmos, for good or ill, much as we prefer to have something else fill that role-- such as drooling yoga pants, inscrutable gods, or the many natures of mind and consciousness.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 12, 2019 - 11:14am PT
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MikeL, your insults aren't worth responding to (never read your long-winded self-absorbed posts anyway, much arrogance..and truth must hurt ya since you decided to respond with personal insult - all you could come up with...which speaks of the real quality of the "mind").
No one owes you a ray of sunshine: it's all in your mind. Neither a fake "good morning". Some people can't handle "reality".
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 12, 2019 - 11:48am PT
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Formerclimber, it would seem that perhaps life has not treated you well, reading your posts here and elsewhere. Would you care to relate some of your misfortunes, or depressing interactions with worldly forces? I'm not being judgemental or snide, just curious about events that have shaped your persona. If not, that's fine. Please don't take offense.
It's all part of "What is Mind"
JG
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 12, 2019 - 12:05pm PT
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You obviously had lived very sheltered life, jogill.
Anyway not reading your posts again - your hatred, Pollyanna.
It's always sunny in Pollyanna's fake little bubble (as soon as everyone agrees with her)
You must have nothing to do/much time on your hands, even memorized what I post elsewhere (!) haha - I don't even remember you, pal. Hike your own hike, keep your hate and not-thinly-veiled personal insults to yourself. Not sure what made you the way you are (and don't want to know).
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2019 - 12:32pm PT
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formerclimber
Relax ... MikeL and jGill are good people.
You are misinterpreting their intentions.
They really mean well even if you think not .....
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 12, 2019 - 12:33pm PT
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Mind is what you make it. you make you get. FC there were no insults in those posts ; but, you made them insults.
What if you don't construct mind ? then what?
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 12, 2019 - 12:36pm PT
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formerclimber
Relax ... MikeL and jGill are good people.
You are misinterpreting their intentions.
They really mean well even if you think not ..... OK, I just saw that jgill is 82... not gonna argue with "elders"!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 12, 2019 - 08:57pm PT
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JL likes Quantum Mysticism and I feel there is something eating away at quantum theory. In fact, here is an image of a Quantum Bug making its way to an Event. Magnification is 4,000+
Sorry to hear that the Forum is doomed. It's been fun.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 13, 2019 - 06:54am PT
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Yes, we always wondered how this thread would ever end, let alone reach conclusions. Now we know.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 13, 2019 - 08:19am PT
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The mind trying to analyze...itself. Nothing can be more futile and pointless.
It's like a chick inside an egg thinking it's a full-feathered chicken and trying to lay eggs. It's like ants analyzing art.
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WBraun
climber
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May 13, 2019 - 09:11am PT
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The gross materialist mental speculator scientists can't understand this stuff since they are locked into studying dead matter and have zero understanding of what actually constitutes life itself .....
The mind, intelligence, ego are dependent on the soul (atman). The soul (atman) consciously experiences and interacts with the gross matter through a subtle body (mind, intelligence, and false ego).
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 13, 2019 - 09:25am PT
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Former: No one owes you a ray of sunshine: it's all in your mind.
As old age has set in, I have come to find myself reviewing past times and events randomly. (I'm not doing it; it's doing itself.) Surprisingly, what stands out like bumps in a road are the most difficult, lonely, sad times when I did not know what I was really facing or what to do about it. You could say that in those times I had lost my soul. Those times, I now see, constitute the richest moments of the life I think I have. The physical and intellectual achievements all pale in comparison by a wide margin. The sad and most soul-searching moments were those times when I most clearly and fully saw being, my consciousness.
I recently saw the latest Avenger's movie, and it is a terrific movie--so different than all the other past movies in the Marvel universe. The movie seems rich and deep emotionally, and I would argue that it is only so because the previous movie set-up the premise (where half of the life in the universe gets wiped out). This last movie gets to probe and digest the great sadness in its characters in so many thoughtful ways. Of course, the heros win in the end, but that is relatively anti-climatic and superficial in comparison to the qualities expressed in the main body of the story / movie: the great sadness and loneliness.
Perhaps I should not have used the term "ray of sunshine" in my post, but I was pointing at a reading more than I was condemning anyone seeing sad and uncomfortable things in the world. For me, I am witness to a personal paradox that says that the most trying and lonely moments of my life have been perhaps the best, strange as that may sound.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 13, 2019 - 10:15am PT
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Excellent post MikeL.
I know what you say about those sad and lonely times-- when you feel backed up against a wall and have to struggle your way forward against self-doubt .
Yes, we always wondered how this thread would ever end, let alone reach conclusions. Now we know.
Have I missed some development recently?
Never mind I got it.
Well y'all know what this means?
Answer: now we are on our first deadline to solve the foundational question posed by the thread title.
This is not the time to be slacking off.
We've got lots of work ahead of us.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 13, 2019 - 10:57am PT
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If this thread is worth salvaging perhaps it could be relocated to another site. Mountain Project? I find WisM to be at the top of my list of threads at ST, and the list of regulars here to be outstanding. The climbing content on ST is pretty good, also. But it appears the days are numbered.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 13, 2019 - 02:40pm PT
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Perhaps I should not have used the term "ray of sunshine" in my post, but I was pointing at a reading more than I was condemning anyone seeing sad and uncomfortable things in the world. For me, I am witness to a personal paradox that says that the most trying and lonely moments of my life have been perhaps the best, strange as that may sound.
MikeL, not sure why do you think that "most trying and lonely moments" are somehow related to seeing "sad and uncomfortable things in the world". One is not related to another. Seems like you mixing up emotions and logic while projecting yourself/your own vision of life on others (myself). If citing "trying and lonely moments" was an attempt to demean me in a veiled fashion (false assumptions about me which happen to be untrue)....well, you didn't get it right. You trying to say I'm having "trying" times it's like me saying you're doing coke to explain your strangely positive view of the world.
The human "mind" in general is a plague and over time had achieved little but destruction of the planet, never-ending wars/violence (while this gift could have been used differently), plus it's the source of most human suffering (as only humans are aware of their mortality...thanks to their mind) - there'll, very likely, be a grave payback for this.
This is a logical conclusion. I'm not sure what makes one have a different view and see it all in unreasonably positive light... they must be smoking something I'm not aware of.
If you somehow replace the logic/philosophical view here with emotions it doesn't work either...humans are no happier than wild animals, being in possession of their "precious" mind (the latter don't need the army of psychotherapists, priests, drugs, doctors, alcohol, "entertainment" and happy pills which half of the American nation is on).
I'll finish with words of Baudelaire from Le Voyage:
everywhere,
effortlessly, through this world, we’ve seen,
from top to bottom of the fatal stair,
...
Man, greedy tyrant, harsh, lewd, merciless,
slave of that slave, a sewer in the dust.
The torturer who plays; the martyr who sobs;
the feast, perfumed and moist, from the bloody drip;
the poison of power, corrupting the despot;
the crowd, in love with the stupefying whip:
Several religions just like our own,
all climbing heaven.
Sanctity, like an invalid, under the eiderdown,
finding in nails, and hair-shirts, ecstasy:
Drunk with its genius, chattering Humanity,
as mad today as ever, or even worse,
crying to God, in furious agony
...
Bitter the knowledge we get from travelling!
Today, tomorrow, yesterday, the world shows what we see,
monotonous and mean, our image beckoning,
an oasis of horror, in a desert of ennui! *Please forward any complaints directly to Mr Baudelaire if anyone finds these statements to be disturbing.
Here's another good one... from the Bible:
Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 13, 2019 - 03:46pm PT
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The mind trying to analyze...itself. Nothing can be more futile and pointless. I don't agree with this even though I agree for the most part with your most recent post that is so harsh on human mind. If you analyze mind as a scientist, you can do things like notice and document the similarities and differences apparent (through controlled experiments and our own intuitions as pet owners and observers) between our minds and say the minds of chimpanzees, dogs, cats, rodents, dolphins, and snails (if they have one). I would call this analysis that is not futile, thereby refuting your thesis.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 13, 2019 - 05:32pm PT
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To call a plan or program futile is to say it cannot achieve its goal. Although this thread has a title, it isn't clear to me that it has a goal.
In contrast to that, it is clear to me that many a scientific question has a clear goal that can be achieved. Something similar is true of questions in mathematics, although the achievability may be one of the questions, somewhat like the mind trying to learn about itself.
In almost every case in science and math, only small steps can be taken at a time. Marvelously, a small step is often key to the rare leaps that are made.
I enjoy this thread and have benefitted in various ways from the other participants.
Thread that is born of internet hath but a short time to live...
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WBraun
climber
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May 13, 2019 - 06:04pm PT
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The goal is "What Is Mind"
The gross material scientists don't want a goal or answers.
If they actually got answers it would destroy their whole st00pid illusion they are in.
The gross materialist's motto is there is NO NEED FOR ANSWER, (st00pid)!
Thus they don't want answers they want illusion to give them illusionary answers that never actually come to any actual conclusion.
The gross materialists operate under the full illusionary powers of maya and thus have no real clue .....
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 13, 2019 - 07:09pm PT
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If you analyze mind as a scientist, you can do things like notice and document the similarities and differences apparent (through controlled experiments and our own intuitions as pet owners and observers) between our minds and say the minds of chimpanzees, dogs, cats, rodents, dolphins, and snails (if they have one). I would call this analysis that is not futile, thereby refuting your thesis.
Experiments on animals (torture)... another testimony on what human "mind" is really about. Regarding futility, I'll just quote Edgar Poe:
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
None of the scientists will ever know what "mind" really is, when exactly they're going to have their last moment of life, what would be their fate in general, and what exactly happens to them and their mind after they die (including if they wake up as a lab rat).
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