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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
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Ed- "To me, Newtons religious beliefs, are a historic oddity".
What may be known of God can be seen, "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them". Romans 1:19.
Not only are divine attributes clearly seen in humanity, but they can be seen in the material universe as well "since the beginning of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made..." Romans 1:20.
Nature itself speaks eloquently of its Creator. From the intricate design of the human cell to the majestic strength of the spectacular mountain ranges of the world, and the phenomenal order of the universe. All of God's works testify to His wisdom and power and divine nature. And can be clearly seen by contemplating His awesome works in all creation.
"The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork". Psalm 19:1.
Newton recognized Gods attributes, and all his scientific inquires substantiated/confirmed to the best of his abilities those beliefs.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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whatever,
the important part, to me, is that understanding those things does not need god,
Newton didn't need god to discover his universal law of gravitation
he may have interpreted that law as the product of a creator, but he did not have to invoke anything special in his thinking of the science, the "experimental philosophy" to correctly deduce the quantitative relationship of masses.
We can go around and around on this, with no resolution in sight, but on the matter of science, and of what it can do, we need not invoke anything other than our observation and our ability to quantify it...
...I understand that that is not enough for most of you, but it is enough for me, it is all I need. My experience of the universe is no less wondrous, and I think in many respects, more wondrous.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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Newton by all accounts was genius, even by today's standards.
By the age of 26(?) he had discovered his 3 laws of Motion, Universal Law of Gravitiation, and invented Calculas to do so, and more, and he did it for his own curiousity. It wasn't until Hooke, "hooked" him into a rivals possible publishing first that he came around and then he had to re-solve his Universal Law of Gravity (he had lost his notes) and publish and then the world knew just how brilliant he really was.
Maybe he didn't have it all figured out (we still don't), but he had discovered how gravity behaves even though he didn't know what caused gravity or understand its field phenomenon. Today we still don't know exactly what gravity is, what produces it. We know it has some relationship with mass, it can alter time and space, it causes things to accelerate toward center of mass etc. Today we also have Einstein's General Relativity to describe its behavior . . .
To discount his faith and what he believed, is to reduce who he was and what his faith and what GOD meant to him. You can not seperate the man from his faith, they are one in the same. To discount or belittle his faith, is an atttempt to discount the possible divine inspiration he received to do great works and push man's understanding of the natural Universe around him. He had no problem with being a very good Scientist and a devote believer in GOD at the same time. Perhaps that is what gave him the ability to see further than everyone else. He was a truth seeker.
He had faith. He believed in GOD. He tried desperately to find the Bible Code and wasn't able to. Do you realize that at Cambridge University most of his notes focus on matters of Faith and his search for the Bible Code? They far outnumber his notes on science from what I understand. This is a recent discovery and acknowledgement.
777,
I really like your last post :-))
The Universe exclaims the Glory of GOD!
Amen.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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You people are great....and entertaining!!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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Klimmer -- gravity can alter time
How's that work? The clock ticks one second at a time.
And in that bible code above what are we supposed to "see" the way the squares, triangles, circles, etc are arranged?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:36am PT
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"The world is one, not separated into paved and not paved."
and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.
The New Heaven and the New Earth
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
The New Jerusalem
Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal. He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
The River of Life
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
Jesus Is Coming
And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”
“And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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who's belittle whom...
...no doubt that Newton had a whole lot of strange stuff going on, he almost defines the beginning of science. He got a lot right, he got some stuff wrong, he was f*#king brilliant.
He was not especially a "nice guy" though he is credited with the "if I have seen further than others, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants" it is widely interpreted as a snide british slight of the astronomer Tycho Brahe, a man of reportedly short stature... one can only imagine Sir Isaac rolling his eyes at the epi-cyclic hypothesis... by legend with the Cambridge physics set had him every much the image of one of those dons who delighted in pointing out just how wrong a rival was, over and over again... but then again I only knew this from a colleague, who knew it from Rutherford, who probably heard it from J.J. Thomson, who got it from someone that knew Maxwell, who probably heard it from Faraday...
Through to the time of Maxwell, Newton's influence on british physics was astounding... and Maxwell even feels obliged to cook up a mechanical explanation of the aether through which light could travel because of Newton's rambling thoughts in Optiks in a section other than the one Jennie quotes above... Maxwell knew what Newton did not, that light was transverse oscillation... yet it took another 50 years after the wave equation for someone to realize that no aether was necessary, at least not one like Newton conceived.
They were all religious, after a fashion, Faraday a member of a christian sect, is buried in the dissenter's section of the Highgate Cemetery. Maxwell too, was religious and had an evangelical conversion in early adulthood, he would argue against me if he could post from where he thinks he would have ended up. J.J. Thomson's religious beliefs appear not to have been notable, though my colleague remembers seeing him looking at the women's undergarment display of some department store, and thinking that J.J. couldn't possibly remember why it would be at all interesting. Rutherford's religious thoughts seem also to have escaped the notice of history.
I am not all that interested in Newton's alchemical thoughts, nor his study of the bible... and his special interest in the second coming... he seemed a bit peeved at predictions, writing:
"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, recconing twelve months to a yeare & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived [sic for “long lived”] kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons wch God hath put into his own breast."
(Newton didn't believe in the trinitarian doctrine... to which no one here has provided a response to in my previous query, quite inconsiderately).
this caused a sensation in 2003 when Newton's texts were rediscovered... http://www.isaac-newton.org/newton_2060.htm
It all goes to show the power of the scientific method, religious occultists of the caliber of Newton, born again like Maxwell, or even atheists... all of these can make progress, provide huge contributions independent of their beliefs.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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You cracked me up on that post, Ed
It was pretty damn good.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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Here’s the thing I realized about this discussion about God we’ve been having Ed. (Did you know Ed is my middle name?)
I realized I’m bound to win!
Cause here’s the thing; just as in some scientific situations, I’m sure you have the experience to see the solution is a hand before others realize it.
I’m just enough mystic and lover of my fellow man to see there is no hope for you in this. (I’m only channeling Lois a bit here)
Some people’s great intellect can shield them from the holistic experience of themselves which is Spirituality. Our Spirituality is always our relationship to ourselves. State of belief is relatively immaterial. We all live in ourselves.
Spirit is unconditional.
I see you being awake to the Light and Presence of your own Being. It’s sort of like the way playboys can spot lack of virginity. I Remember that the Eddie that argues against God online is the very embodiment of Light and Sainthood in real life! I have zero doubt that Eddie is a deeply spiritual person, whether you have an intellectual place for that or not, because I see you BEING it.
You feel the presence of your Eternal Being within you and you commune with others on that level. I see you Ed!! You must be aware of this on some level. Doesn’t matter what you think about it. Someday you will realize it transcends material bounds.
Perhaps your own inner compass with our Source will choose to open to it in the mountains, or with a special person, at the time when its your REAL discovery and not some preaching coming home to roost.
But you are already inexorably Real, Ed, and it is only by turning away from yourSelf that you could ever fail not to some day come face to “face” with the Timeless Being that you are. You are more than synaptic firing in a meat soup! You are Love itself Bro. I think you feel that deep within. A fantastic expanding soup of realization and Love exploring itself on this planet and yet limiting itself for it’s own devices.
But see for yourself. I’ve already won and good for you too!
But, for those of you who like experiments... Let’s see how this works. Choose some kind of unlikely symbol, like a red elephant, and voice it to the universe in private but aloud. This is the symbol of our developing communication. Give it time. Be open. Maybe something happens. Be critical and scientific. ? The world is far more fluid than it seems.
Peace and Love You always
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:29am PT
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Klimmer -- gravity can alter time
How's that work? The clock ticks one second at a time.
And in that bible code above what are we supposed to "see" the way the squares, triangles, circles, etc are arranged?
WB,
We had a serious discussion on this with Ed et al., posting all about this. At this time I can't remember the title of that post, but if you search for Einstein, Special Relativity, and General Relativity on ST you are sure to find it. I recall it was Largo who got it going.
Or Ed can do a quick explaination (I'm coping out, I'm too tired, its a long explaination, and its late - lol).
The Bible Code above is a page from Michael Drosnin's famous bestselling book "Bible Code," and it is showing pages from the OT Bible, the Hebrew Torah. Remove the spaces between letters and do equal space letter searches and you will find codes hidden within the inspired word of God, the Bible. If you watch the videos on Bible Code it goes into what it means and the significance.
Worth posting these videos again because they are sooo goooooood:
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code:
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blbLke9kLIk&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=0&playnext=1
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 2 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwMM3-UfuQo&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=1
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 3 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHuEG4nDR0Q&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=2
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 4 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIadU4uz7m8&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=3
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 5 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C53YCyAqGU&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=4
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 6 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHmbONyiHU&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=5
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 7 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIWRjt23tI4&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=6
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 8 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km8y10KG-TQ&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=7
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 9 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RLPhL34RYs&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=8
ITS A MIRACLE AND I CAN'T EXPLAIN IT.
All I can say is . . .
GOD IS.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:30am PT
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thanks Karl, but you haven't been listening... all this spiritual stuff, god, religion, The Way, The Path, nirvana, Sanātana Dharm, whatever... it is all a part of us, a part of us. The way we think, the way we perceive the universe around us... there is universalism because we think alike, it is the legacy of billions of years of evolution, it is shaped by all that came before...
...of course, it isn't truly universal since we have trouble conceiving that our close animal kin might share some of this, and we completely flip when even more distant cousins might show signs of what makes us us... (maybe it's them that flip...)
These things we think are amazing and powerful and transformative... and alot of it, perhaps most of the stuff that doesn't actually help us survive and some that does, is just not real.
We can think anything we want... but there is reality out there, and in here... and we're apart of it, but what happens between our ears, well, what happens in las cerebro stays in las cerebro... some of it just will never be anything but thought.
All these things are forms of self absorption...
...I happy to participate, really... but my bumper sticker keeps me grounded: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:33am PT
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OK then, I won't believe everything you think.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 22, 2009 - 05:14am PT
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Ed wrote
...I happy to participate, really... but my bumper sticker keeps me grounded: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK"
I'm glad we can agree 100% on that.
Since I don't believe what you think has much bearing regarding the spiritual connection that I'm convinced I see in you, I'm happy for us to share a critical view of our minds limitations.
Still, you are a scientist. Try my experiment and make up your experimental conditions so you can't delude yourself. Be as open as any genuine and sincere inquiry, but without prejudice.
I'd be the first to agree that we are all prone to self reflected delusions and assumptions.
Just suggesting the only way to experiment on the level we're talking about is within.
My guess is that the Universe puts your version of a Red Elephant in your lap in some way that's way beyond your control and intent. Unless, that would scare you, cause we retain the right to our illusions.
peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 22, 2009 - 09:00am PT
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I go away for two days and this thread catches fire! Great job Ed and Karl! It's hard to know what else to say after all that.
I would however, like to make a correction to one of my earlier statements since three different people objected to it. It seems that my 4 am contribution on science wasn't as clear to other people the next day as it seemed to me at the time.
I did not mean to say that all of science was a belief system just like a religion. What I meant to say was that once a scientist crosses over from agnosticism to atheism then he or she is presenting their own personal belief system since science itself must be agnostic on the question. As for science and religion from the science point of view, it seems the only answer can be cultural pluralism. From the religious or spiritual point of view, one can choose either cultural pluralism or syncretism.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 22, 2009 - 09:01am PT
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As for science being a methodology as jstan defines it, I think the same can be said for the eastern methods of meditation, particularly those of the Indian and Tibetan schools of meditation yoga where progress can be measured by definite physiological events in both body and brain. The timing of these events is individualized (the result of one's own karma?), but the sequence seems to take place in a certain universal order.
I am currently reading a fascinating book called Fingerprints of God: the search for the Science of Spirituality. I started with Ramachandran's, The Emerging Mind, and continued on from there. Written by a non sectarian believer in spirituality, Fingerprints of God discusses the latest research in this field at the various laboratories where it is done.
Even so, not one of these researchers has even looked at the chakra system, the kundalini system, or the physiological mechanism behind seeing the thousand petaled lotus, all well known and well described physical experiences based on meditation.
There is a long ways to go to understand the physical phenomena behind mystical experiences, let alone interpret their significance to science and the material world. Lacking any scientific knowledge on the subject, I go with the simplest explanation currently available - that they reflect a not yet discovered consciousness within the human mind and body, just as the yogis have taught for the past 4,000 years. It is my experience and belief, that they also reflect a universal consciousness.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 22, 2009 - 09:15am PT
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When Frank and I did Europe, we did it in a very sequential order intellectually speaking, with Sir Isaac Newton holding a special position.
First we visited Greece, then Rome, then France and Germany, including three full 8 hour days at the Deutsche Science Museum. We watched the first moon landing on a television at the USIS center in Geneva on our way to England where one of the highlights was our visit to Westminster Abbey where we of course visited the tomb of Sir Isaac Newton.
Particularly moving, as it seemed the perfect ending to our 8 month intellectual journey, was a large floral decoration on the grave from an American school group with the message, "To Sir Isaac Newton, The Eagle Has Landed."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 22, 2009 - 09:45am PT
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“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”
Thru the Bible - Sunday Sermon - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_sunday_sermon/Archives.asp
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 22, 2009 - 10:14am PT
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Six o' clock
In the morning, I feel pretty good
So I dropped into the luxury of the Lords
Fighting dragons and crossing swords
With the people against the hordes
Who came to conquer.
Seven o'clock
In the morning, here it comes
I taste the warning and I am so amazed
I'm here today, seeing things so clear this way
In the car and on my way
To Stonehenge.
I'm flying in Winchester cathedral
Sunlight pouring through the break of day.
Stumbled through the door and into the chamber;
There's a lady setting flowers on a table covered lace
And a cleaner in the distance finds a cobweb on a face
And a feeling deep inside of me tells me
This can't be the place
I'm flying in Winchester cathedral.
All religion has to have its day
Expressions on the face of the Saviour
Made me say
I can't stay.
Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here!
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call.
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all.
And now I'm standing on the grave of a soldier that died in 1799
And the day he died it was a birthday
And I noticed it was mine.
And my head didn't know just who I was
And I went spinning back in time.
And I am high upon the altar
High upon the altar, high.
I'm flying in Winchester cathedral,
It's hard enough to drink the wine.
The air inside just hangs in delusion,
But given time,
I'll be fine.
 "Cathedral" Graham Nash
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 10:46am PT
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NO COMMUNION FOR YOU!!
PROVIDENCE, R.I. — Roman Catholic Bishop Thomas Tobin has banned Rep. Patrick Kennedy from receiving Communion, the central sacrament of the church, in Rhode Island because of the congressman's support for abortion rights, Kennedy said in a newspaper interview published Sunday.
The decision by the outspoken prelate, reported on The Providence Journal's Web site, significantly escalates a bitter dispute between Tobin, an ultra orthodox bishop, and Kennedy, a son of the nation's most famous Roman Catholic family.
"The bishop instructed me not to take Communion and said that he has instructed the diocesan priests not to give me Communion," Kennedy told the paper in an interview conducted Friday.
Kennedy said the bishop had explained the penalty by telling him "that I am not a good practicing Catholic because of the positions that I've taken as a public official," particularly on abortion.
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