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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ghost-
I just read the reviews of the Bicameral Mind and then remembered that I had looked at it a long time ago. Way too speculative based on too little evidence was my impression, particularly since his agenda seems to be so anti God and anti religion. Both my scientific and spiritual training say keep an open mind but my personal tendency always, is to seek the middle ground.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Klimmer. I'd be interested in hearing your response to the second part of my last post. What if you had been born in, say, Saudi Arabia, and your parents had indoctrinated you (as they most certainly would) with the teachings of Islam. Do you believe that you would have somehow found Christianity anyhow (in which case you would be rather special indeed)? Or is belief in Islam just as good as belief in Christianity (and way better than no belief at all)?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Way too speculative based on too little evidence was my impression
Not going to quarrel with you on that. I didn't mean to imply Jaynes' theories were sound, but they sure were interesting. Sometimes that kind of thing -- speculation which you ultimately don't accept -- can be a great mind-opener. And as to soundness, well, Jaynes' ideas were at least more believable than most theism. More fun to read, too.
And anyway, the whole debate is stupid. The world was created when Raven became bored with life in the land of the spirit birds and flew away with a stone in his beak. He dropped the stone into the ocean and the land was formed.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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That question opens up a huge can of worms even in the Christian world.
Where was Jesus for 3 days before rising from the dead? The good book suggests he went somewhere to give all people who came before who died without knowing Christ a very special message of good news. And they had or have the opportunity to accept or reject God's plan of redemption.
What about the people of Earth who have never heard God's good news message? And there are those who go through life and do not hear or are really given a chance or opportunity to accept or reject Jesus. It seems he has a plan for them also to get the word, and perhaps it occurs in the new millineum of peace. This is a contraversial message even in the Christian community. It seems to me though the good book does describe this and God has made a plan.
I cannot imagine in all fairness God condeming to death for eternity, anyone who has not been given a fair opportunity to hear the good news message and then be given the opportunity to either accept it or reject it. Everyone will be given a chance to hear the good news and God's redemption plan somehow. I do not know all the details of how, but he does, and the good book indicates this.
No one will have an excuse. No one will be able to say on that last day that they didn't know or were not given a chance to decide, one way or another. God is fair and he is merciful.
Edit:
Khanom,
I can't even begin to tell you how wrong your post is.
You look at all of Christidom and see all the hypocrasy and the hate and the wars etc. and you think that is an indication of the faith. No you are wrong. They are hypocrites and God calls them out. He knows. There is no fooling God. Those "believers" are only deluding themselves. Jesus said you will know them by the fruit they bare. Jesus gave a good news message to the World, if they reject it that is their business. He didn't strike them dead. He just dusted himself off and went on to the next village or town.
Tell me when did Jesus ever hate, hit, start a war, or punish someone for rejecting his message while he was on Earth? His message is about peace, love, forgiveness, and a return to God. Others ruin his message, but not Jesus, not God.
You have to know and be able to decern the difference.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Philo, Thanks for my first good chuckle of the day. :D
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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I appreciate your honest response, Klimmer. Seems to me, however, that it puts those born in Muslim countries at a HUGE disavantage. Easy enough for you, as a Christian, to say that somehow God will take into account the fact that they have been worshipping the wrong God their entire lives. I guess I would deserve eternal damnation, since I was raised in but untimately rejected Catholicism. It's to those Muslims and people of other faiths that the Plan seems so unfair.
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WBraun
climber
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In the Western world, theologians have been unable to scientifically present the laws of God or, indeed, God Himself, and thus in Western intellectual history a rigid dichotomy has arisen between theology and science.
In an attempt to resolve this conflict, some theologians have agreed to modify their doctrines so that they conform not only to proven scientific facts but even to pseudo scientific speculations and hypotheses, which, though unproven, are hypocritically included within the realm of "science."
On the other hand, some fanatical theologians disregard the scientific method altogether and insist on the veracity of their antiquated, sectarian dogmas.
Thus material science has moved into the destructive realm of gross materialism, while speculative Western philosophy has drifted into the superficiality of relativistic ethics and inconclusive linguistic analysis.
With so many of the best Western minds dedicated to materialistic analysis, naturally much of Western religious life, separated from the intellectual mainstream, is dominated by irrational fanaticism and unauthorized mystic and mystery cults.
Purport 12 canto S.B.
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WBraun
climber
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Satyam, truthfulness, is also diminishing, simply because people do not know what the truth is.
Without knowing the Absolute Truth, one cannot clearly understand the real significance or purpose of life merely by amassing huge quantities of relative or hypothetical truths.
Certainly smrti, memory, is weakening. In former ages human beings possessed superior memory, and they also did not encumber themselves with a terrible bureaucratic and technical society, as we have done. Thus essential information and abiding wisdom were preserved without recourse to writing.
Of course, in the age of Kali things are dramatically different.
No, I did not write this ......
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WBraun
climber
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khanom -- I suppose?
You're just a mental speculator. You don't know sh'it .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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What if you woke up one day and simply could not remember any of your beliefs. How do you imagine the direct experience of your life would be - minus at least some of the intellectual constructs?
JL
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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JL,
Unfortunately there are no guarantees for life. I only know of 2 cases of
senility to compare. One died immediately and I assume that is what
he would have wanted prior, the other unfortunately or fortunately
lived for years being senile. I would prefer to die as the 1'st.
BES
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Forget Fattrad,
I support Largo for POTUS.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jan wrote I came across an interesting video that should interest both groups while checking out Largo's references to Ken Wilbur. Some of you may have seen it already as it is part of a PBS series on evolution. The title of the 5th in the series is called The Mind's Big Bang.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7000929389205786708&ei=0cvKSuaUNYqUwgOE8PTQCA&q=big+mind&hl=en#
Wow!!!! Thanks for sharing that! Fascinating, thought provoking, and relevant to all of the discussions in this thread!
Now a question for you: According to the video, and other things I've read, the "great leap forward" took place sometime around 35,000 years ago. But at that time, H. Sapiens was pretty much distributed around the globe. If there is a genetic component to it, that suggests that an external forcing created the *same* parallel evolution (albeit a very tiny change) more or less simultaneously in thousands of different populations!
Is that the consensus in paleoanthropology? Incredible!
GO
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Eeyonkee wrote . . .
I appreciate your honest response, Klimmer. Seems to me, however, that it puts those born in Muslim countries at a HUGE disavantage. Easy enough for you, as a Christian, to say that somehow God will take into account the fact that they have been worshipping the wrong God their entire lives. I guess I would deserve eternal damnation, since I was raised in but untimately rejected Catholicism. It's to those Muslims and people of other faiths that the Plan seems so unfair.
The Jewish faith, the Islamic faith, and the Christian faith all worship the same God. The God of Abraham. We have more in common than we have differences.
The Jews rejected Jesus because they were waiting for a Messiah who would come as a King, they missed the fact that he would come in humility, and forgiveness, and suffering first and then a second time as a King. Their time is coming. Their eyes will be opened at some time in the future and they will cry for Jesus as a mother cries for her first born. They will accept Jesus and finally know him as their Messiah.
The Islamic faith worships the same God, but through specific steps of faith and instruction to be carried out in a very prescribed methodology of faith and beliefs and that God's prophet is Mohammed. Jesus said I'm am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the father except through me. I imagine (my speculations) God will honor the faith and devotion of true Muslim's who truly abidded by their faith while on Earth, and didn't follow doctrines of hate and violence which are contrary to true Islam. Those who practice such tactics are extemists. When God presents the truth of the matter to true Muslims some day, I don't think they will have an issue with turning from Mohammed and worshipping Jesus when they are shown the truth. Like I said, we have more in common than we have differences. The idea that by commiting suicide and taking out many infidels in the process, and you will be rewarded with so many Virgins in heaven is not gonna happen. Also the idea of worshipping a meteorite in Mecca will have to be abandoned. Now I like meteorites, I collect them, but I know enough not to worship false idols, but instead worship God only.
Christians, we worship the same God, the God of Abraham. We know the way of salvation. We know it is a gift of God by grace, not through works, least any man boast. We know you only come to God through his Son and our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ. That is God's plan of redemption.
I believe, and the good book suggests this is true, that the Jewish/Hebrew faith, Islamic faith, and the Christian faith have more in common than we have differences ultimately. I think true believers will come to know Jesus when given the opportunity by God.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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I'm probably wrong, but I don't think Largo is talking about senility. Perhaps he's posing the question, "what if one day you woke up and you weren't preprogrammed with all your prior belief system ?"
Even if I read it wrong it's still an interesting question and I am pondering it. What would I do ? Who would I be that day of awakening ? Who would I be 10 years from then ? What would I believe ? What would I look to first for discovery ?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Radical wrote: ""What is referred to as the most recent common ancestor (sometimes also called the "missing link") is the ancestor between humans and our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. Where Ardi fits is on the human side, but a million years closer to that MRCA than Lucy.""
You're missing some of the basic stuff that has been written about even on this thread. But keep studying and re-read some stuff. At any rate, it seems Ardi is over rated, as I have been reading from many leading experts the last week, but it is interesting.
No, I don't think I am. But if there's something mistaken in what I stated above, please point it out. And give me a reference, too, if you have one.
I'm not an expert in the field, but I have done my homework.
Thanks!
GO
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Missing you Riley.....Nice take on the "what if one day you wake up."
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Lynn wrote: "I'm probably wrong, but I don't think Largo is talking about senility. Perhaps he's posing the question, "what if one day you woke up and you weren't preprogrammed with all your prior belief system?"
The interesting thing here is that anyone would equate stepping out of beliefs with senility, implying that opposite, intelligence, is somehow the fruit of beliefs, or at any rate, is hooked up to beliefs in some basic way. This illustrates our addiction to measurable or quantifiable information, and the misconception that we might understand only so long as we have the correct data. But the spiritual and religious articles that get tossed around here are not assailable with data because they are not "things." In the formal sense they are not "real" because, like awareness, they are insubstantial. Perhaps it is likewise true that in wave-form, mater is also not "real," and that it becomes "real" only when it materializes.
Interesante!
JL
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jstan
climber
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Riley:
There is an undefined term loose here. What is your "belief system?"
Is the expectation we have that an object when released in the air will fall toward the center of the earth, part of the "belief system" to which you refer?
You need to be specific.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Largo ponders: "What if you woke up one day and simply could not remember any of your beliefs. How do you imagine the direct experience of your life would be - minus at least some of the intellectual constructs?"
Hard to say given our current biases and "understandings" BUT, with acknowledged bias here,that being my long held belief that there is a creator I quote Romans 1:20; For since the creation of
the world God's invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made..........
This tells me that there is really no such thing as a atheist, only those who choose to ignore
the Truth they have seen clearly presented to us all through what has been made.
Doug
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