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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:57pm PT
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I have a modest proposal for ending this discussion. It seems that certain posters insist on having the last word. Neither side will convince the other, so . . .
Let me have the last word: It's time to move on. Or, to use the words of Bullwinkle Moose, "If this train goes by this station one more time, I'd like to get off."
John
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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OK john step off the train if you need to but the slaughter is on going and the ground assault is about to begin, Do you honestly expect me to stay quiet?
Besides I have done everything to get folks to read my climbing threads but apparently this stuff is more interesting.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:03am PT
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"Who threw the first punch in this this time?? "
It's been said, and I think it's true, that who is 'wrong' in the Israeli Palestinian conflict depends on when you start the clock.
In the Bible, God promises this land to the descendants of Abraham but, then again, the Palestinians claim to descend from Abraham's first born,Ishmael. It's a family squabble from thousands of years ago.
It wasn't nice the first time. When the Jews invaded the promised land in Biblical times, they took the land and killed every man, woman and Child in most every village because they said God told them to do it. It's a claim that hard to get the police to believe these days.
Even when we go back to 1948, it's just a matter of weeks or months to determine who was aggressor? Just remember, Israel wasn't formed by international degree or put within internationally proposed borders. That was in the works but Israel declared it's own independence before an agreement was made. Of course the neighbors objected.
What to do? I think internationally brokered borders and peacekeepers need to be crammed down the throats of both sides.
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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"What to do? I think internationally brokered borders and peacekeepers need to be crammed down the throats of both sides. "
So who determines 'official' borders then? History? Isn't that the crux of the problem here?
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:49am PT
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these pretzels...ARE MAKIN' ME THIRSTY!!!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:01am PT
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This is NOT an attack on Hamas for the defense of Israel. This is an atrocity of genocidal slaughter of trapped and helpless civilians. Gaza is the most densely populated land on Earth. They have attacked clinics, hospitals and the university of 18,000 students over 60% of them young women. In fact the IDF made a point of firing multiple rockets into the women's dormitory of the University. Who exactly is Israel defending themselves against? Millions of starving refugees?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:20am PT
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Breathe Philo. A brother is offering you the hand of friendship. Accept it. Let the peace of that friendship flow over you. This is the same healing energy that needs to flow over the middle east. You have told us that it is flowing in some parts of Palistine and Israel. Prayerfully, my hope is that this will grow and spread over all of the region.
I hold you and your family and all those in the middle east in my Prayers.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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I have been studying the Volcano that is Yellowstone for many years. Obama is going to have to come up with a solution to the problem of the moving magma or we are all dead. Everyone, exept us Jews. Yes I have 25 percent jew blood.
Juan
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 30, 2008 - 03:26am PT
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Obama will save us.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 09:24am PT
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"An eye for an eye never solves anything."
Unless your goal is constant chaos, which it appears both Hammas and Israel want.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 30, 2008 - 11:36am PT
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"Thank you for finally agreeing with me that it is a "Clash of Civilizations"
I think you use the word "Civilization" loosely.
Also funny, Israel continually denied that the wall would be the final border and even it's own supreme court (to its credit) ruled it's path unjust
peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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No DaftRat you are once again wrong. You should be used to that by now. We are not all in agreement with you. In fact remarkably few STers are. This "CofC" that you crave
is only such because you and AIPAC and the Zionists want to proclaim it as such. This current conflict does NOT go back "thousands of years" Unless you are specifically referring to Jewish historical penchant for taking by brutality of force that which is NOT theirs. If that is the case then I am all with you. The only ones "Clashing" with "Civilization" are the Israelis. They have thrown international law into the dustbin and are engaging in the war crime of a slow but steady genocide of the Palestinians. They have abandoned their morality and humanity. Continuing on this path will only bring about the end of the State of Israel. Not from imagined external threats but internally by the rapid degeneration of blackened hearts and corrupted minds. This will bring about the self inflicted and all too avoidable end of a Jewish only homeland.
My wife just talked last night to one of her best friends. She is a wonderfully loving 90+ year old Jewish gentle woman who Loves my Quaker Palestinian wife like a daughter. She is the soul family survivor of the Holocaust. Her family fought and died in the Warsaw ghetto uprising. Do you care to know what she has to say about this crisis? She is heartbroken! She is ashamed! She is appalled! She is disgusted. She refuses to accept that Israel is in any way acting on her behalf, in her name or in her defense.
She thinks the radical fundamentalists of Israeli Zionism need a proper spanking by their mommas. The need to go back to Synagogue and plead for forgiveness. She is
lividly angry!
Care to argue with her Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody? Any of you arm chair heros want to compare the vastness of your experiences and travails with hers then tell her she is wrong?
Because I offer that it is best not to argue with me today.How many family members did you lose in the last few day Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody? Spare me your pompous self righteous racism will you please. My wife is on the verge of catatonia having seen news footage from Gaza last night. It started with footage of a 18 month Palestinian child who was barely alive having had her face blown off by one of those "surgical" strikes the IDF is so proud of. That was exceptionally hard to see. But what really devastated her was the site of a wholly leveled apartment building in the background. It seems the baby was salvaged from the wreckage. But you see that same building was home to friends and family. Innocent friends and family who never did you or anyone you know the slightest harm. They may have gotten out but there was NO warning. They were told to expect a "lull" to provide for safe shopping before the siege. There was NO lull. The IDF struck at the busiest parts of the city at the busiest part of the day. So much for limiting civilian casualties. The Palestinians were trapped and hunted like Bison in a pen.
Problem for my wife is that NO one can get a call in or out to check on loved ones. She is utterly in the dark. She fears that tragic child is her friend's baby.
But all you testosterone overdosed war mongers and Arab haters will probably rest assured that if any of my wife's friends or family were murdered they probably deserved it. You probably think they were shielding Hamas terrorists from the F-16s and Apache gun ships with their apron strings.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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Oh Mercy.
Philo, I am so sorry. I hope that it turns out that your friends and family are okay and I hope that some day both sides can learn to live in peace.
John
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
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Thank You John! Very much. I want the same thing.
But right now I'd settle with getting my wife to stop crying.
And Riley we are totally cool, no kick in the nuts necessary. I am just very heartened that you understood. You are a good man. Thank you for your words.
Most sincerely Phil Broscovak
For the few of you on the extreme right of reason...
You see I am agonizing here. In face of the scale of this brutality (the bloodiest since 1948) I just can't tolerate the few STers who constantly act like a cheering section, urging more killing, more destruction and suggesting the Israelis "wipe em out!"
Particularly when this same thoughtless souls unequivocally defend any action by Israel regardless of how repugnant, illegal or morally bankrupt those actions turn out to be.
Go ahead tell me I am wrong, tell me I am stupid, tell me I am an apologist for savage blood thirsty terrorists. Go ahead, then go have a heartless to heart with your God.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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Nobody wants to see innocent people die, but there isn't a country in the world that would defend itself in the manner that Israel is doing if faced with a similar threat.
Gaza is ruled by Hamas and the people of Gaza support Hamas. Hamas is dedicated to the annihilation of Israel. If they had their way not a single Jew would be left alive in Israel/Palestine.
Innocent people died in Nazi Germany also, and some of their family, especially those who supported Hitler and his policies, blamed FDR and Churchill.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:34pm PT
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This is interesting Jeff.
Why are the Saudis complaining about the influence of Iran in the region?
Are they just bitching for show?
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:41pm PT
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Philo writes:
"Care to argue with her Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody?"
---- and
"How many family members did you lose in the last few day Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody?"
You're not dragging ME into this! (you'll notice this is my first post on this thread)
As long as people from Palestine, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Iraq all get along fine in Los Angeles (and they DO, because they're not stupid enough to try and fight their idiot ansesterial old-country quarrels here), then I don't give a damn what they do over there in their little shithole.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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Jeff, NO i don't believe you do understand. There is so much you don't understand.
The Palestinian Authority and the large majority of Palestinians have already conceded Israel's right to exist. They have done so repeatedly and unequivocally in front of the world. And they have avowed such for a long time now to NO avail. But you all fail to mention this in your Arab bashing hatred. You like the Israelis keep changing the criteria for "PEACE' and statehood. No matter how much the Palestinians agree to how little they get or how well they comply with Israeli demands they rules keep changing on them. How many variations to what is required of the Palestinians have you yourself posted? The Israelis won't give peace a chance because they have absolutely no honest intention to allow for the Palestinians what they themselves demand, Statehood. Please for once be honest and acknowledge that the long term game plan is to eliminate all Arabs from the land as quickly as world opinion will allow.No one will drive Israel into the sea but themselves and God!
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:45pm PT
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LOL!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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Read international reports Jeff. The truth is it's the Israelis who won't let wounded Palestinian civilians out of the prison that is Gaza. Nor will the Egyptians, who claim they won't open the gates till Hamas concedes power. The Israelis have tried to make it sound that the Gazans are massing to escape. The reports from Gaza say NO one is trying to escape they are just pleading for food and medicine. You know, prior to the attack by Israel, the on going total blockade of Gaza by the Israelis has killed many more civilians than all the rockets fire out of Gaza. Even just the Israeli refusal to allow Insulin to be delivered has killed more Palestinian civilians than all that rocket fire combined.
Now before Big Jeff tries to say "but look the Israelis let in almost 100 truck loads of humanitarian supplies aren't they wonderful?" Remember that was the first aid allowed in for months. And it was delivered just hours before the attacks began. The shipments were destroyed in the attacks along with the masses of innocent civilians who had gathered desperate for food, water and medicine. The IDF better get in there with tanks and bull dozers right away to destroy evidence of their war crimes before any one recovers the GPS tracking units stashed among those
"humanitarian supplies! Kind of like the US Cavalry giving tuberculosis laden blankets to the Sioux before attacking them that winter.
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