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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 27, 2007 - 12:26am PT
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...at least until all the steep lines are played out and aiding slabs comes back into vogue...
(sorry, try though i might, i just couldn't resist! =)
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 27, 2007 - 02:58am PT
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and aiding slabs comes back into vogue...
Looking at that route, up close, it does look like it could go free. At 5.xxxx. And it will, someday.
At least the belay anchors are there for a Leo or a Dean to go do it.
Mark and Richard did a proud line. The continual hook placements on WOS are WAY beyond anything else on El Cap. The proof is there has never been a second ascent. Stop bagging on them, and start climbing their route. Can you finish? Nobody else can.
In 1982, nobody was even thinking of freeing that slab. 25 years, and bubble-gum rubber shoes later, it now looks feasible. The Big Downside is the bolts are old, and like all old bolts, are probably sorta rotten. The SA team will have to repair the belays, as they go, hanging off portaledges, like Window Washers.
Will a team on Aquarian throw their trash onto the SA team?
Probably not.
Mark and Richard were subjected to the worst hoodlumry that Yosemite climbing has ever seen.
Who were those Sh*t On Ropes people? Not a one of them had the balls to climb the WOS route later. They stood at the base, and railed, as if insane, against those who could climb the line, a line that, history proves to date, they could not climb themselves.
Thank God those days are over.
EDIT: The SA of Wings of Steel will be the most significant ascent of El Cap in 25-odd years. Whoever does it will lay to rest the "rivet ladder" BS once and for all. And will come down with a story.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 27, 2007 - 11:28am PT
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A few observations from a person whos opinion means absolutely nothing.
Lambone is a windbag who hides behind Largos broad shoulders. And I bet he bought a unicycle to impress John.
My opinion of Largo dropped a few nachos when he said the WoS guys should have climbed some of the classics first. Why? Sounds arrogant and ego-testical.
The guys who shat on the ropes are low life cowards who have no stones, if this meant so much to them should stand up and take credit for protecting the Big Stone.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 27, 2007 - 12:04pm PT
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I think one of the most ironic things about the whole WoS "thing" and how it all went down (and this, I believe is pointed out above, or in one of the other threads) is that this is *supposedly* all about ethics... Yet, the choppers and shitters had to jug the lines to do the chopping. This type of behavior was frowned upon back then, and should be now too.
If you're so high and mighty that you're going to clean a route on "your" rock, you should be able to do so in good style and should probably be able to actually climb the route. Otherwise, you're a windbag sucking hot air. I don't know much else about Dimitri, but this single act alone was pretty sackless and shows a lot about his character. And, since the reviving of this thread was based on character, I wonder what it says about a couple of guys who face tremendous adversity and stick to their guns through it all to reach their goals. In the process, proving everyone wrong about their style, ethic and sack. In history books and other endeavors, that type of character is something to be looked up to. And still, the route remains unrepeated. That must sting. No wonder folks have done all they can to continue the shroud of BS.
The truly unfortunate thing about all of this is what Batrock said above. And I know this is true of other people as well. Others have expressed this type of feeling. It really sucks to be disappointed and let down by the reality of those you once looked up to. Maybe this is why history books are more propaganda than actual history a lot of the time.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 27, 2007 - 12:37pm PT
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batrock wrote:
"My opinion of Largo dropped a few nachos when he said the WoS guys should have climbed some of the classics first. Why? Sounds arrogant and ego-testical."
i disagree, and i think that point of view lacks the context of the era and the tradition of the place. climbing was changing, ethics were changing, there was conflict and disagreement all over. climbers self regulated in ways such that we in 200? cannot simply compare our experience to theirs.
i am not defending anyone's specific actions or calling anyone else out for theirs, but i am saying that you cannot tell someone who was there anything about what did or did not happen while they were there and you were not.
my take is that it simply was not a community that was inclined to risk the resource or the tradition to outsiders they were unfamiliar with.
you want to love yosemite on the one hand, with all of its tradition and history and all that the words "traditional climbing" stand for in yosemite, and yet you want to cast blame on people who participated in that history and are responsible for that tradition?
stones and glass houses my man.
it's a bummer that some of those things happened, and richard and mark are likely not the only climbers to ever have been slighted, but maybe they had some pride at the time as well. i personally cannot help but wonder what would have been the history of WoS if they had woven themselves into the community and earned the trust of those who sought to persuade them away from their objective. we will never know.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 27, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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Good points, Matt.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 27, 2007 - 01:14pm PT
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Batrock wrote:
HK,
are you saying we have to take into account that someone might be dead in two years before we make a remark about them?
No, knott at all. It's just that those tedious, chicken-shít comments about Todd Skinner were nothing new,
and now that he's gone they seem even more lame and chicken-shít, especially considering the hundreds
of posts in his memorial thread affirming what a great guy he was - both within and outside of the climbing "community".
Batrock - a few posts later you wrote:
The guys who shat on the ropes are low life cowards who have no stones, if this meant so much to them should stand up and take credit for protecting the Big Stone.
It seems that we're on the same page. There are so many cowards who bad-mouth people relentlessly
from the safety of a remote computer, who wouldn't dare risk an in-person encounter.
In Todd's memorial thread, one of these ugly cowards made an unbelievably horrific comment,
and this was after Todd's family members (including his young niece) had posted.
Fortunately the post was deleted and the account banned within minutes; hopefully most missed it.
So perhaps I'm a bit sensitive, especially having had my own flock of Internet Bitches™ with a hard-on for me...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 27, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
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Tom quote: "In 1982, nobody was even thinking of freeing that slab. 25 years....."
Not true, Dale Bard, Kauk and others, were thinking and seriously looking at it for a free climbing line.
Only two guys were involved with the travesty of physically messing with the WOS teams ropes and route.
Don't lump everyone else into a blanket statement that they were involved. Those 2 guys acted alone that night without anyone else's knowledge.
The people around at that time would not have condoned that type of sabotage that those 2 guys did.
Seriously man, the whole history of WOS has been blown way out proportion and over zealously dramatized by a few interested individuals to make it seem bigger than life.
Beyers did a route to the left of West Face of El Cap that I believe hasn't had a second ascent yet either.
All this WOS steel over hyped bullshit will remain for people with no real clue about what climbing is about. They want to remain in their private little world of controversy and self bias.
The rest will just climb the Captain in the best way they can and walk by the physiological wreck that people have created in their own minds of that WOS.
If anyone ever does the 2nd ascent it will not be the second coming, but more anticlimatic.
A technically difficult route only will usually not inspire, this is one of the main reason people reject WOS.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 27, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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"Not true, Dale Bard, Kauk and others, were thinking and seriously looking at it for a free climbing line.'
and
'A technically difficult route only will usually not inspire, this is one of the main reason people reject WOS."
Seems kinda contradictory, Werner... Seems that it inspired some of the best of the era and our sport.
Just pointing it out.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 27, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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Nefarius
I believe what Werner might have meant that as a free line it is incredibly inspiring, but as a blank aid line it isn't.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 27, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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But their main motivations were not to "create a technically only" hard climb.
That was a side product of the "Line" and weakness of the rock which gave passage to the summit; (we call it a route, a line. etc.).
So if someone is inspired to do this line "WOS" then go do it.
I really feel most people don't really want to climb an aid route with predominately so many hooking moves pitch after pitch.
That's why you "see" routes like let's say Zodiac, PO as "Classic" where as WOS is on the far far extreme end "fanatical aid".
Most climbers are not at the extreme end of fanatical aid climbing.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 27, 2007 - 05:39pm PT
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I can understand that, John and Werner. Personally, I really enjoy doing routes with beautiful lines that call to you. And this is definitely the consensus feeling amongst climbers and FAist, for sure. But who's to say what is inspiring to others? In discussions I've had with people, it seems that the Great Slab did call to others, even for possible aid routes. Maybe it was the difficulty of the thing that called? The fact that there had been attempts on it and people bailed super low on the slab, etc. Of course, this just goes along with Werner's above lines on fanatical aid.
I can definitely understand it not being people's thing, at all. Obviously, it wasn't ptpp's thing. Probably too much hard work! haha! Talking with Ammon, he definitely has expressed what you're talking about. Especially what Werner says about the hooking, pitch after pitch. He said it was boring, not inspirational and frustrating, having to look for micro-hook move after micro-hook move. I can see it being really tedious.
But, man WoS would be a sick free line, for sure! That would be badass. I remember being able to see that the first pitch looked like it would go free. Linking feature to feature. There is a section of slab about 60' up that looked pretty heinous though. Can't say for certain, but it was between like the 2nd and 3rd bolt. It didn't look as bad when you were up there vs. looking up from the ground though.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 27, 2007 - 06:14pm PT
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"Two guys"?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 27, 2007 - 06:42pm PT
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Werner,
Those last two post were full of it.
"Dale Bard, Kauk and others, were thinking and seriously looking at it for a free climbing line."
Really? That might be, but strange that WOS has seen a 1000 posts, many by you, and this fact comes to light only now even though this very point was the topic of discussion when the WOS threads were active 2 years ago. Also, in the pre-Fire's era, even Kauk wouldn't need more than 5 minutes to see that he wasn't doing a free ascent. Moreover, we showed up not long after Yaniro (world's first 5.13) had made an attempt on the Slab ... an AID attempt. Evidently he didn't view an aid route on the Slab as sullying a great El Cap feature destined for better things.
"Only two guys were involved with the travesty of physically messing with the WOS teams ropes and route. Don't lump everyone else into a blanket statement that they were involved. Those 2 guys acted alone that night without anyone else's knowledge. The people around at that time would not have condoned that type of sabotage that those 2 guys did."
What total, utter, BS through and through. Only two choppers, and no one else complicit, huh? Evidently you absented yourself from the Valley the week after the chopping, especially the night after when multiple people cat-called to us from the campfire at your (YOSAR) campsite, boisterously proclaiming that "we chopped your route" mixed with various other insults and profanity. "The people around at that time would not have condoned that type of sabotage …" What a joke. I’m sure that is very, very true for some who were there, but unfortunately that sentiment can’t be applied to the Valley locals as a whole.
"A technically difficult route only will usually not inspire, this is one of the main reason people reject WOS."
Say what? People reject WOS because it doesn’t inspire? Good thing for Yaniro that he saw the light before finishing the Slab and thereby marring his reputation as a visionary first ascensionist. Hey, maybe that's why I never climb at GPA, the rockfall is ok but all that nothingness just leaves me empty. Oh, wait, now I get it! A free route working up a line of weaknesses through a blank slab is Kauk-worthy ascetic, but an aid line doing the same is uninspiring.
I really feel most people don't really want to climb an aid route with predominately so many hooking moves pitch after pitch.
Ah, a nugget of truth unearthed.
That's why you "see" routes like let's say Zodiac, PO as "Classic" where as WOS is on the far far extreme end "fanatical aid". Most climbers are not at the extreme end of fanatical aid climbing.
Hmmm, kind of sounds like the Sea on the early 80's, doesn't it?
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Dec 27, 2007 - 08:00pm PT
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yawn
I'm way dumber for having read this thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 27, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
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MSmith
I said "thinking" do have reading comprehension problems?
Do you have other "problems" that still linger? Like trying to link me to your WOS nightmares?
If you only really knew .......
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 27, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
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WBraun
Looks like your basic strategy is smearing my character rather than addressing my points......
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 28, 2007 - 12:43am PT
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^^^
pride
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 01:30am PT
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I don't really have anything to add to the WOS debate, but MSmtih it's been 9 months since your last post here... perhaps things have been slow on STForum but in the 2 years since your first post of 95, the vast majority have been responding in one way or the other to topics on WOS.
I appreciate your willingness to provide your point of view on the history of that climb. And I understand, to some extent, the passion this episode inspired.
And though my wishes really don't necessarily mean a whole lot to anyone here, what would be fantastic for me is to get your input and insight into climbing and climbs beyond WOS. Climbing doesn't begin and end with that FA. And the community of climbers has grown and changed a lot from those tribal, territorial days. My guess is that you don't have much need for the STForum community, just as I have come to understand that you didn't have much need for the Yosemite Valley community at the time you did WOS.
Just a thought.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 01:34am PT
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MSmith,
What is it that you need right now? I am in about the same position as Werner, I was around at the time, I am not sure who did the bad deed to you, but have an idea and it was certainly the most immature members of the Valley community at the time. Sure, without thinking too hard about it, and not really knowing the move for move reality of your route, at the time, like most everyone else, I thought WOS was a strange forced line. Yes, I admit it, I probably laughed when I heard about the incident, and probably had some sort of local "in with the in crowd" attitude in relation to what happened, so I am complicit in your eyes.
I feel bad that this still haunts you. I am truly sorry as a valley local guy at the time that you were treated badly by the community.
So here we are today, on this forum, Werner, (and I would like to think myself as well) is one of the more thoughtful and caring members of that community of old, and still there is seemingly nothing that can be said that will make you feel better. Only you can get over this. How are you going to do that?
Sincerely,
Peter
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