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DJS
Trad climber
wherever my mind exists
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:19pm PT
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Regarding the occupation of Italy, Germany and Japan
Yes actually. First we obliterated Italy and forced them to fight on our side against the Axis or Italian soldiers would be considered enemy combatants and shot on sight.
Germany was beaten to submission, it was an unconditional surrender which was the Allies stance on ending the war. They had no choice but to "allow" us to occupy their country. The Cold War prolonged our occupation and split Germany in half. This wasn't fully sorted until a peace treaty was signed in 1990.
Japan was also forced into an unconditional surrender which the Japanese Emperor agreed to after the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. One part of the agreement is that they wouldn't be allowed to build an army and that the U.S. would serve as their military.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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It isn't occupying if they (the gov't) want us there
so we are there to "liberate" the people-
(how very zell miller of you!)
yet our presence is determined by "the gov-t?"
whatever fits best into your narrative, i guess...
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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Dogtown=Asshole
I admit it.
But that doesn't change anything.
ALL TERRORIST NEED TO BE SENT TO HELL.
They hate us and want us dead.
Iraq is as good a place as any to kill them Fact is its perfect.
It's hard, very hard to like someone that hates you and want your family dead.
Of course I'm half Jewish.
So to the jackass that called me a racist, put yourself in my shoes.
You don't know sh#t about racism.
You Pussy.
Dog.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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^^^
troll alert
...betchya if the US military invades "The Idyllwild City dump" there'd be some new-found terrorists there as well
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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Jun 18, 2008 - 08:18pm PT
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If there are terrorist in the "The Idyllwild City dump" we won't need the marines I'll shoot them myslef.
I see your point Matt, but I don't think its true for the most part.
I think most of the terrorist are Foreign fighters that went to Iraq to get killed and so far we are doing a good job helping them.
Few are home grown. (pitty)
Dog.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
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DaftRat said....
"And, to directly contradict #8 above.............Morocco, we installed a benevolent monarchy and it is tolerant of all religions. Of course Islamic forces are now trying to topple it".
Dafty you know nothing at all about Morocco. We installed NOTHING in Morocco except the most sensitive spy listening post in the world to replace the one we lost in Iran.
Teddy R never put troops on the ground, never invaded, never installed a thing.
I lived in Morocco during very troubling times. I lived amoung the people and dealt with the government.
Moroccans would laugh their asses off to hear you so ignorantly pontificate. Then they would probably behead you to save you from your own stupidity. Don't spew about that which you know nothing about.
And quit getting your worldview from Netflix.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 18, 2008 - 08:30pm PT
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dogtown guy-
just out of curiosity-
what do you know about the recent history of the afganistan?
what do you know about the involvement of the US in the wars between the muhajadeen(sp?) and the soviets?
what do you know about the rise of the taliban into power in afganistan?
(and btw, you DO know that afganistan is where the actual AQ terrorists were, prior to 9/11, right?)
so how does one go about creating a "safe haven for terorists"?
any guesses?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:06pm PT
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"Matt, yes we werre try to liberate South Vietnam from communist control. "
Jeez Bluering, read up on the dang war will ya. It was the South and the Us that refused the UN mandated elections to determine the future of Vietnam. It wouldn't have even gone commie if the US hadn't sided with the colonial French against the Nationalist who wanted Whitey out!
We killed 2-3 million people over there and what had they done to us?
SHame
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:14pm PT
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That was your heroes JFK and Johnson that screwed the pooch on that one.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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I take note of the people talking about US bases in Germany, Japan etc. like the US were invited there and know that they don't know their history.
Every place the US has a base was a manuver to leverage power from a country in an unfortunate situation. The US didn't help anyone in WWII until they were desperately worn down, broke, and would agree to anything. Bam, US supplied just enough to leverage permanent bases in their countries.
The government now doesn't care about recession, or the general population's situation, but they do care about keeping oil in USD, especially with the price hike lately. It works hand-in-hand with their long-term situation, they need to sell their dollars and make interest. Devaluing the dollar does that as well. But devaluing and requiring countries to have to have more USD in reserve for higher Oil prices makes the treasury twice as much. Not the US gov't. That's just a tool.
Now if they could only do something to ensure that countries like Iraq and now Iran will quit breaking out of US currency. I wonder what they will come up with...
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:39pm PT
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No Dafty You don't know. Which is obvious when you constantly state how we should do to other countries just like Teddy R did to Morocco. The western powers didn't seat the current royal family or any other previous ones. Even the link you posted never says they did though they constantly meddled in the affairs of Morocco. The royal family of Maroc is connected to the people through many more years than the European colonial powers involvement.
The people of Morocco would laugh at you for your arrogance and ignorance.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 19, 2008 - 12:13am PT
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Blue Ring my friend... before I upload my words I read them several times, making corrections each time (and still make mistakes). Consider doing so of your words. That you will avoid some embarrassment is immaterial to the far greater value of learning more knowledge by questioning your own words as do I.
Not having served in the military could indicate your greater wisdom demonstrated by those sufficiently wise to prior figure out the contradiction of fighting instead of reasoning, within a species predicated on the reasoning ability of its mind.
Therefore you could have advanced YOUR knowledge with a very similar answer by stating that you have not served in the military because you are not yet certain of its value, and that you have studied the history of militaries.
But for your words to ring true, and be sustainable against questions, you would have had to actually study the history of militaries. Your word arrangement in that regard, and the nature of your other comments indicates that your knowledge of militaries is confined to discussions such as on this forum, and believing RATHER THAN QUESTIONING the laughable ego-inflating, pro-war propaganda of military dolts who exist because they did the same thing for the last several thousand years, quite like myself back then, or I would not have joined the Army.
When you stated that you were speechless and that you completely disagree with everything in my post centered on the troops supporting the US Constitution, anyone could read my post again and recognize that you, like Bush, are categorically opposed to the citizen rights described in the US Constitution, and want to sacrifice soldiers, not yourself, in wars to create the raw power of mental midget ego-dependent war leaders who HATE citizen rights.
If you disagree with the other guy's conclusions, wisely ask the RELATED questions that demonstrate an error in the other guy's conclusions. Of course if your questions are related and effective, they have a 50 percent chance of revealing your own error, to thus advance your knowledge, at your great satisfaction of successfully using your mind for its designed purpose.
Do not agree or disagree with the other guy. Ask yourself the related questions to verify or disprove his statements or actions, so that your resulting entertainment is the product of more knowledge that can be sustained against his questions.
You want knowledge from the other humans, not agreement with your conclusions, if you are wise from this moment forward.
That the US soldiers are told they are fighting for the US Constitution (lie/contradiction) rather than the king, president, fuer, emperor, government, fatherland, motherland or Park Service, when any literate person can read the US Constitution and recognize it has been voided by the DemocanRepublicrat Regime, guarantees the complete defeat of your illusions when the contradiction can no longer be sustained. You cannot fool all of the people all of the time, by design of the human mind.
Fat Trad of the Gop Convention... FDR and the DemocanRepublicrat Regime betrayed the military chaps right down the list of lies that leaders have pandered to cannon fodder since wars were invented. WWII offered a little better illusion of good old us guys, than most wars, but for those with the energy and incentive to look under the metaphorical rug, leadership betrayal of unquestioning followers is eating away at the rug that has been hiding it.
"Peace at any cost" is a meaningless rhetorical illusion. Ask more questions of the sound byte phrases incessantly used to avoid accurate arrangements of words that reveal functioning concepts.
You cannot have peace as long as any social leader is using force or deception to damage another person, by design of the results of force or deception. You can have peace when routinely created contradictions are resolved by reasoning, a concept you have yet to learn.
To use crude language, Bush could slam dunk destroy all the terrorists, communists, Islamic Superstatists, gypsies, evil emperors, those dam liberals and a gaggle of environmentalists, within 6 months for the lot of them, by learning the process of reasoning, that is, asking and answering all the questions of all the contradictions, in a methodical, efficient process, and effect the resolutions that will ultimately happen anyway by design of contradictions, to leave his enemies promptly destroying themselves with their unresolved contradictions facing no actual enemy that sustains contradictions. Your hasty suggestion of any type of opposition by the other guy would merely illuminate one of the contradictions already questioned and resolved.
In contrast, the current use of ignorance-based force and deception creates the contradictions that preclude the use of force and deception from achieving anything but more contradictions, just what the other guy is foolishly doing to stalemate the self-defeat of each entity.
With the same knowledge any enemy of the US can slam dunk the US in a week. Don't worry, the enemies are as dumb as Bush. They and Bush could read these words, and would not know how to form the first question. The design of the comedy is more than just brilliant.
So it is not the meaningless illusion of peace at any cost. It is peace at the cost of YOUR thinking, abhorrent to unthinking military chaps whose money and ego gratification empire is based on force and deception. They perceive that paper money and ego gratification are the zenith of human achievement, oblivious to the design of the human mind. The generals fear more than death the thought of their cannon fodder soldiers asking the type questions that Blue Ring flees rather than answers, the questions that advance knowledge.
Another ProjectNight.com was canceled while I am still working on the AlaskanAlpineClub HQ plumbing. Amusing.
Doug
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 03:56am PT
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I just browsed the comments since I was here last...no surprise. Especially you Obama idiots, should realize the need to come together and fight as one for our country. Not for Iraq in particular, although that is essential, but we need to CHANGE....wait...no we don't...this is perfect, we get to discuss politics openly and can even dissent.
I love this place. Matt and PMB and philo are still fools, but at least they show up and debate. Let me go back and read details and see what you commies were talking about....hold on
We do need some changes to our electoral process though. Money should not be so necessary, it should be about intelligent, actionable ideas. Not rhetoric or philosophy, actionable, realistic sh#t.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 04:03am PT
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Doug, I'll study you response close this time....I'lll keep editing this post for roughly 10 minutes...
It's o.k. for you to assume I'm an imbecile interms of military affairs. It seems to me that you lack reasonable basic logic skills though, and that's not an insult, just observation.
you said
"and believing RATHER THAN QUESTIONING the laughable ego-inflating, pro-war propaganda of military dolts who exist because they did the same thing for the last several thousand years, quite like myself back then, or I would not have joined the Army."
That can be a noble ideal, to question authority. I insist it's true, but you have to also insist that sometimes, to survive, you must fight...it's actually an instinct. If someone tries to kill you, you defend yourself and kill them first if necessary.
Self preservation.
Your next point about insiting on disobeying orders is lame. The military is based on rules and chain of command for a reason, you guys have a lot of power. You're implying that soldiers basically tell their CO's to fuc-k off? Dude that goes against all military rules...and it should.
hold on...
you said
"In contrast, the current use of ignorance-based force and deception creates the contradictions that preclude the use of force and deception from achieving anything but more contradictions, just what the other guy is foolishly doing to stalemate the self-defeat of each entity."
Dude, I understand military jargon easier than that. WTF are you talking about there...contradictions?
Doug, like many others here, we see things very differntly. No surprise, that's the way it should be...makes our country great that way!!!
To me though, you seem as radical as the gov't you accuse. What if you had everything your way, where would we be? Long term.
We need to moderate and stabilize this shit!
Edit: I just re-read lot of this and Doug, we just have serious philosophical disagreements. It appears to me you're a gov't hater if it goes against your beliefs. Nothing wrong with that, I disagree sometimes too.
I just fear if you get what you want, you'll regret it. Maybe the same applies to my ideals. My rythym guitarist actually got into with me tonight...but I may have instigated. Wanna hear the story? There's a circumcizion involved. I totally mispelled that, but I know one when I see the foreskin removed.
You don't wanna watch this procedure either.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 19, 2008 - 07:22am PT
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Yooo the cool Blue Ring of music, and colleagues......
Save all your posts. They are classic. If you have them to review in 20 years, you will laugh yourself to tears with the knowledge you learned in the interval.
You can learn much of it right now. Read carefully, and form questions from the following.
Your conclusions attributed to me are illusions your mind invented to keep itself fooled, as does George Bush. They were not my conclusions, or you would have seen my words matching yours in the posts.
You were not an imbecile until you suggested it. I assume nothing. You revealed that you assumed that I assumed something I did not. Wisely assume nothing.
If I lacked basic reasoning skills (asking and answering questions), you would have noted a question I could not answer, whose answer contradicted a conclusion of mine. Bare conclusions reveal likely ignorance, unless they indicate available reasoning.
Is it unlawful for an Army Private to carry out an unlawful order issued by a Captain, General or Commander in Chief?
The answer is yes, as taught in the Army and otherwise obvious to any literate person.
Blue Ring, is it unlawful for an Army Private to carry out an unlawful order issued by a Captain, General or Commander in Chief? Having suggested that you could have studied militaries, are you capable of answering that fundamental question of all internal military authority?
Is it possible for an Army Captain, General or Commander in Chief, being human and corrupted by power, to issue an unlawful order? Your answer?
It is not only unlawful to carry out an unlawful order, it is the known legal duty of the Private to refuse to obey an unlawful order, as taught by the Army.
As known to the military chain of command, were it otherwise, the lieutenant could order his private to kill the general, to create a lawful "straw man" process that the private would be required to obey, and assume command. Read that as often as you wish. It is fundamental military doctrine, of all militaries.
If you have military people who are so stupid they do not know how to distinguish a lawful order from an unlawful order, your military is useless and doomed. Stupid people make a lousy military, such as that of Saddam Hussein, and the US military that has functionally lost 10 wars since WWII.
Soon enough, the US military will face profound problems that may dramatically alter the US military or imprison many officers because the extent of unlawful orders issued by Bush, and sustained by stupid officers, has undermined the fundamental concept of a credible chain of command, much to the amusement of the observers. Military officers are starting to question what has been happening, by imperative.
Your mind invented the conclusion that I implied that soldiers basically tell their CO's to "fuc-k off". Read everything I wrote, again, and notice that you are yet clueless of how to use words that hold their meanings. I am guessing that you were as poorly taught by equally ignorant public school teachers, as was I. I therefore had to learn that skill on my own. Learn it.
But not a bad idea. The current US military CO's are so dismally pitiable, taught by the same failed government school system, that soldiers telling them to fuc-k off would inherently improve the US military effectiveness. When did we accomplish that last mission?
If it is evident that somebody is about to kill you, I suggest you kill him, and have already learned several ways to do so, a large caliber hand gun if you are busy and do not have time for more entertaining methods.
But if he is only threatening to kill you, he is probably some teenage mentality matcho school yard bully like Saddam and Bush, and you would be wise to graciously educate him in the wisdom of not using force that will only create enemies that will increase his problems, as it would yours if you were as unwise as he.
Do not shoot the grizzly bear with a hand gun before you have a REAL problem. He is probably only bluffing as usual, and when you shoot him, you will have a REAL problem. Why are we still stuck with that accomplished mission, and American troops still being killed, and tax dollars drained into the Middle East sand trap, and the world increasingly holding Americans in contempt? Your answer?
The word, "contradiction" is not military jargon. It is a more accurate and more useful word for "problem". The more accurate your words become, the more readily your mind will recognize the resolutions to the contradictions that frustrate people confusing themselves with generalized words that carry too many different connotations.
We do not see things differently. Our minds lack the knowledge held by each other. Learn the knowledge, by asking and answering questions, and you will recognize that you and your enemy both want the same thing that is available to each of you without fighting, and not available while you are fighting. Only you create your enemies, from lack of knowledge.
If everyone else thinks the world is flat, and Christopher says it is round, did you want to call him radical, and moderate his sh#t, or learn his knowledge? What is your answer? Did you want to learn what your current political friends claim as is, or what actually is?
You invented my accusing the government of being radical. It is not. It is normal. It represents power-damaged minds, the norm for the current era of humans deep in the intellectual dark ages.
You invented my hatred for the government. I do not hate it, or anything else. I am amused by it, and everything else. The brain chemistry based emotion of hatred obscures useful reasoning. Hate nothing. Learn about it. It is part of the comedy.
I already got what I want, and I can assure you that I cannot regret it. I collect knowledge. What do you want to know. It is yours for the asking. Form your questions very carefully. Question them.
Let me know when you release a CD. Screw the lyrics. I dance to the music not the words.
Or some sort of whatever like that.
How did all these empty chocolate candy wrappers get around my computer at 3:30 AM?
Doug
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 10:53am PT
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Fattrad, is your daughter posting again. Someone says they did, you say they didn't. Yes they did, no they didn't. Yes they did, you loose.
Don't denegrate yourself, if you are going to argue with someone, don't make yourself worse by repeating their mistake, elevate yourself and research, state your source.
Or just pull the classic fatty move. Show up, spew, leave. Haven't been right on much, too bad you can't bet money/invest on your war predictions eh? Your clients would have been broke!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 19, 2008 - 06:46pm PT
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The problem Bluering, is that Bush's military and economic policies are much, much more of a threat to this country than the boogyman Islamists. You ask us to support the bigger threat because they have scared us with the smaller one.
Sorry, no dice. Many detailed and clear arguments have been made against your view here and you have said nothing of substance to refute their facts and ideas. Wake up, so you don't find out that your support was as blind as a Hilter Youth in old germany.
We have to see the real threats and problems are within.
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 19, 2008 - 06:48pm PT
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Also, "imperialism" has changed. It's inefficient to move in to a country if you can have a compliant local stooge run things for you, and still exhert economic hegemony over it's trade and resources. This is Empire 2.0 and Iraq has lots of oil fools. Have you noticed it's $5 a gallon for gas versus $1.40 when Bush took office.
Sh#t is going down and you're paying all the attention to the great and powerful OZ but never questioning the man behind the curtain.
Peace
karl
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 19, 2008 - 07:07pm PT
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once again, my good friend karl baba is full of shit!
...gas was $1.46 when bush went in
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