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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2008 - 08:34pm PT
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He could to deceive you, if you needed to be deceived for your ultimate benefit.
Just like a great master will in rare times make show he was defeated.
But, the real master is ultimately never defeated nor can he defeat himself.
Otherwise defeat will be Supreme.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 21, 2008 - 08:37pm PT
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'Love Supreme' is god, heard it today, I know.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
concord, california
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Jan 21, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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OK Werner I think I got it...your God will create a route that He cannot climb to deceive me & teach me a lesson not to ask such questions on the Taco Stand.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jan 21, 2008 - 08:57pm PT
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Werner wrote: First: God is not a "she" but male.
So does he use "little head logic" too??
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 21, 2008 - 09:28pm PT
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It's curious to hear people tell us how "God" is just a mental construct, according to science, which is based on measurments of tangible stuff. If it's not stuff and you can't measure it then it sure ain't science. But who said God was a finite quality? And what happens when you try and measure an infinite quality? You end up with a matamatical construct, a mental construct, in essence, so the argumnt comes full circle and goes nowhere . . .
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2008 - 09:32pm PT
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Excellent John
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Jan 21, 2008 - 09:38pm PT
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But "mental constructs" are measurable in terms of neuroelectrochemistry, ultimately. There has yet to be shown any proof that consciousness can exist without biology. One can have faith in this pleasant idea, but without empirical evidence it's just a nice comforting story we tell ourselves.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jan 21, 2008 - 09:41pm PT
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Cintune wrote: There has yet to be shown any proof that consciousness can exist without biology.
Bingo!
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Jan 21, 2008 - 09:44pm PT
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...Conchis led me a little way to a deep fissure between two boulders, and there suspended a piece of white cloth on the end of a line. I hung like a bird in the water overhead, watching for the octopus he was trying to entice. Soon a sinuous tentacle slipped out and groped the bait, then other swift tentacles, and he began skillfully to coax the octopus up; I had tried this myself and knew it was not nearly as simple as the village boys made it seem. The octopus came reluctantly but inevitably, slow-whirling, flesh of drowned sailors, its suckered arms stretching, reaching, searching. Conchis suddenly gaffed it into the boat, slashed its sac with a knife, turned it inside out in a moment. I levered myself aboard.
"I have caught a thousand in this place. Tonight another will move into that same hole. And he will let himself be caught as easily."
"Poor thing."
"You notice reality is not necessary. Even the octopus prefers the ideal." A piece of old white sheeting, from which he had torn his "bait," lay beside him. I remembered it was Sunday morning; the time for sermons and parables. He looked up from the puddle of sepia.
"Well, how do you like the world below?"
"Fantastic. Like a dream."
"Like humanity. But in the vocabulary of millions of years ago." He threw the octopus under the thwart. "Do you think that has a life after death?"
 John Fowles, The Magus
Which, amazingly enough, is online in its entirety at http://a7sharp9.com/Magus.html
A very good read, if you haven't. (But I'm guessing Largo has.)
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2008 - 09:45pm PT
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Biology exists due to consciousness.
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Colby
Social climber
Ogdenville
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Jan 22, 2008 - 12:18am PT
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"Those that are demanding proof that God reveal himself to them will never see him."
Correct!!!
Because those who want substantiation deprive themselves of having this delusion.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jan 22, 2008 - 12:23am PT
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A zealot by any other name still has smelly feet.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2008 - 12:31am PT
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"Because those who want substantiation deprive themselves of having this delusion."
Only if they are in a challenging demanding attitude.
If he (God) is supreme and one demands and challenges "Reveal Yourself" and he submits to your demands and challenges then you would be superior and supreme.
God always maintains his supremacy.
Actually he's right there in front of you and all pervading at all times.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
concord, california
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Jan 22, 2008 - 01:19am PT
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Werner: was God right there in front of all the poor people of the 9th ward when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans?
OR When the Tsunami hit Aceh, Indonesia? Was he there too? Standing by idly while 1,000s of people drowned?
Or how about when the Nazis were transporting train loads of Jews to be exterminated at Auschwitz? Was he right there riding in the trains with them? Why didn't this supreme all powerful God do something to stop these tragedies?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jan 22, 2008 - 01:31am PT
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Author:
Largo
Sport climber
From: Venice, Ca
It's curious to hear people tell us how "God" is just a mental construct, according to science, which is based on measurments of tangible stuff. If it's not stuff and you can't measure it then it sure ain't science. But who said God was a finite quality? And what happens when you try and measure an infinite quality? You end up with a matamatical construct, a mental construct, in essence, so the argumnt comes full circle and goes nowhere . . .
JL
Re: God vs. Science Jan 21, 2008, 06:32pm PST
Author:
WBraun
climber
From:
Excellent John
ROTFLMAO!!
Confusing tangible and infinite, as if an infinite quantity must be intangible, then confusing math with science, and Finally getting approval from someone who understands even less.
But that's part of how religion works-- confused people huddled together in the dark, wishing for an answer to their fears, and congratulating anyone who says something they like on their veracity and clever thinking.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2008 - 01:37am PT
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We're not even talking about religion dirt, your runaway mind is still speculating in every direction etc etc.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 22, 2008 - 02:17am PT
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JL writes:
It's curious to hear people tell us how "God" is just a mental construct, according to science, which is based on measurments of tangible stuff. If it's not stuff and you can't measure it then it sure ain't science. But who said God was a finite quality? And what happens when you try and measure an infinite quality? You end up with a matamatical construct, a mental construct, in essence, so the argumnt comes full circle and goes nowhere . . .
What I said (don't know about others) is what is physical is measurable in an objective way... almost by definition. If "god" has a physical manifestation, then "god" is measurable. As we have failed to do that I would argue that "god" doesn't exist.
Now what I also said that there thought admits ideas which are not physical. You can imagine something which is physically impossible, or totally without physical basis, or unrelated to reality. If "god" exists in thought, then there is no paradox regarding the non-existence of a physical "god." This "god" is purely subjective.
I am not sure what John means by "an infinite quality," what is an example? And what is the trouble with a "mathematical construct?" Most of our scientific theories are "mathematical constructs" which explain, at some level, the physical universe. The relationship of the construct to what is real may be problematic, e.g. take quantum mechanics, a notoriously difficult construct to relate to reality. Yet that construct is the basis of the most accurate physical theory that we have, we can calculate with precision the outcome of experiments.
What is true is that science demands rigorous tests of these constructs. We take the predictions of the constructs and subject them to experimental evaluation. We make measurements on physical systems, we take the calculations of the constructs and we compare.
That is not what we do with religion, or a belief in "god." There the experience is required to be personal and subjective. While I don't understand John's "infinite quality," I believe the idea it gets at is the lack of measurability... which defines what is subjective. I don't mean this as a pejorative, rather, as relating to our ability to have thoughts beyond what is real, what is objective.
Now the mechanism we are most familiar with in producing thought is our brain (actually it has to do with the whole body). And while it is an object operating under physical laws, the result of these operations, thought, is not subject to those laws. It shouldn't be too surprising that thought might be very complicated, and certainly it can be manipulated, but it is also very subjective. (I don't see why thought is restricted to a brain, or to human brains, my guess is that it is quite general.)
I have little doubt that "god" exists in this realm, with all the godly attributes we ascribe.
Perhaps that is not an acceptable argument. It seems a reasonable explanation of all of the evidence.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 22, 2008 - 02:47am PT
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hey there wbraun... say, nice to see you are still sharing some interesing stuff with folks here... i just zeroed in on the supreme god, and the "he", aspect...
say, lots of folks get upset enough when god is mentioned or folks try for sorting it, or declaring, or whatever... but wow, lo and behold when folks say god is a "he" and not "she" it throws more conflict in too...
but say, it is interesting to note that in the world around us, the:
"she" gives birth, and nurtures by what should be "a loving, moving, inspriations" and in the face before that, there must be a "spark" to set the "life" into action, which come from the "he"... so, for those that believe god is a "he", they can see such an interesting and great picture-example of this principle, in this way... he, it is...
ps--just an extra note as to world conditions:
yet, going by a verse in the good book, (that some men like to over look in society), being---whether we live here as a he, or she, both are equally special in life... and he's should give EQUAL consideration to the she, as to honor and respect.. whether one is the birth giver, or one is the spark...
this can be sadly overlooked at times...
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2008 - 02:50am PT
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Ed H; If "god" has a physical manifestation, then "god" is measurable. As we have failed to do that I would argue that "god" doesn't exist.
Yes, he will not exist to your measurements. It is not possible to measure the unlimited, infinite, God.
That is not the path to understand God by trying measure him. If that was possible he would have to submit to your measurements and become finite. Therefore you would be superior.
Just like one can qualitatively, quantitatively understand almost everything about some person, you measure them, itemize everything about them, get their DNA, etc, and still, there are unknowns about them that can not be measured or collected because we have the same qualities but not the quantity as God.
There's a lot more ...... the same instruments you use to measure the material world is nothing but an expansion of his inferior energy. But still there is the Superior energy "the soul".
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 22, 2008 - 03:05am PT
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hey there wbraun... say, i just saw a mention to the soul, that you just posted.. truly, so , as to man, like you said---you can measure some stuff about him.... but so true in another way---one cannot measure a mans soul...
and yep, one cannot measure god... man sure likes to measure stuff, huh? :) ... curious, man is, i reckon... :)
*edit... that immersurable part, is very special, and it is the "part" of us that is like god, but not equal, as you said...
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