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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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^^^
no indictments, acquittals, or convictions...
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WBraun
climber
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Drooled Moose says "Ignorance is the biggest danger to our existence."
Most of you are completely in ignorance of life itself and most of what you copy and pasted up there falls into the realm of ignorance .....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2019 - 05:57pm PT
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Ah, something new!
There is no such thing as the court of public opinion.
Are you suggesting that the phrase is ludicrous? It's a commonly used phrase, and it's not ambiguous.
Are you suggesting that the phrase doesn't refer to any "process" that matters, that public opinion has no effect on process? Well, then why the endless polls? Why do things like marijuana laws change? What do actual courts consider when they do consider what is "common understanding" or "common practice"?
What becomes "common currency" does make it into laws and into court rulings, so public discussions like this (in effect, arguing before the "court of public opinion") are critical to a healthy republic.
The "court of public opinion" is precisely why Jefferson wrote: "In a republican nation, whose citizens are to be led by reason and persuasion and not by force, the art of reasoning becomes of the first importance."
At present, however, both sides of the aisle care less about persuasion and much more about gaining enough power to CRAM a particular perspective down the throats of dissenters.
If anything, the court of public opinion should matter even more than it does today.
Also, language and linguistics have been in a constant state of change since the first grunt was grunted. In modern English language I will "ask you" instead of the arcane, "prithee".
That is true. It is also missing the point of reference. We rarely use the term "madam" to refer to a woman today, but that doesn't mean that "madam" or "Mrs." or "lady" or any other such terms had ambiguous reference. In your example, "ask you" doesn't suddenly refer to an exceptionally large giraffe.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Hey JB I was just going off on that before I deleted it.
Yep, the courts will decide. And just like the banks, the lawyers will win/win.
Crooks, robber barons, and lies. Oh my!
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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There is no Public Court of Opinion.
LOL!!!
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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There are courts of Law founded on logic and reason.
You mean like when slavery was legal? You mean like that logic and reason?
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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Or, let's say that a male employee (as specified on his Driver's license and all other work-related documents) comes to me one day and requests three months off in accordance with FMLA maternity leave statutes.
I respond, "But you're not pregnant. You're not even a woman who COULD get pregnant."
HE responds, "But I identify as a woman, and I woke up this morning puking, which I identify as morning sickness."
I respond, "Have you seen a doctor about this condition?"
HE responds, "I don't need a doctor to mis-assign me! I am transitioning, damn it, and I feel pregnant."
How far should this charade go? Am I now required by law to hold this GUY's job for HIM for three months while HE is on "maternity leave"?
You completely twisted it....
You, as an employer, CAN require medical certification! Nobody can just tell you they don't need a doctor for medical FMLA.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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huh. one slightly exhausted part of me wants to walk away from this dumpster fire... and the other part, that's sitting here typing this out, can't help but respond... while mb1 has apparently made up his mind, i'm assuming there are others who might still have questions. what follows is one more perspective for those assumably very few... as based on this thread, most have already made up their minds one way or the t’other.
i'll admit i haven't entirely made up my mind. that said, i don't have much use for people claiming to be "rational" and either being anything but, or starting their reasoning chains in falsehoods.
mb1 says repeatedly that what he states are facts and that no one is willing to directly address said facts... while i don't have the time nor energy to address each and every one of his objectively mistaken statements i am going to offer alternative perspectives on what i see as being the two most important and foundational of his driving arguments.
1. But, in point of BIOLOGICAL FACT, under the OP model "she" IS a man. So, "she" IS a MAN who simply identifies as a woman, hence, supposedly, "trans woman." However, that mode of speaking smuggles in the INCORRECT premise that identification equals fact. And THAT is the premise that most of us CORRECTLY deny (correctly if you care about biological facts).
this would be true if by calling a person he/man/male all we were referring to was that the particular person had a penis, or had xy chromosomes, or had the right range of testosterone [depending on what "biological fact" we chose to be associated with the particular words we were using]. but the reality has never been that simple. we as a western european derived society have built up a whole associative and connotative meaning that reaches directly towards an identity overlayed on top of the supposed "biological fact" [a biological fact that in far more than a, dictionary defined, infinitesimal number of cases, is in fact not grounded in "biological fact"].
in case the meaning behind this is unclear let me give an example: if i say someone has green eyes, i don't mean anything more than that they have green eyes. i don't associate traits, collective concepts of who that person is or should be with the statement, rather i just simply mean they have green eyes.
the same is not true of calling a person "he". there is a whole history that consciously and unconsciously associates and defines, to some degree or another, what it means for that person to exist in the world [concepts such as active vs receptive, masculine versus feminine, etc, etc, and etc]
for the vast majority of people the two are congruent: their physical bodies and their understanding of self [their identities] are the same and so for them, the double meaning behind the word is not at issue.
the trick is that when mb1 talks about "a mode of speech that smuggles in incorrect concepts" that is what the whole trans linguistic evolution is attempting to address: the assumptions that are "smuggled" [and sometimes not just smuggled but also overtly used to help create the underpinning for violent control], for those whose physical bodies and identities are not in parallel with the admittedly vast majorities.
because that is the end game as far as i see. for mb1 there is nothing deeper to being male/man/he than either having a fully formed penis, or having xy chromosomes, or the right proportion of testosterone [i have to list all three, as i'm not sure which one of the currently known major objective attributes is the defining one according to mb1].
otoh, there are hundreds of cultures both historically and contemporarily across every continent including millions of folks in the u.s. of a. at this moment who all say variations of the same thing: while part of being male/female is the physical form, part of it is also something more and in some ways deeper. now what this more and deeper is termed, depends on who is doing the reporting and so while some refer to it as the "mind" they were born with, others the "heart" and still others the "spirit" they have inside of them, the point is that those people report a deep schism between what identity others refer to them when using pronouns based in "biological fact" versus how they understand and experience themselves.
depending on the culture and point in time those folks have referred to themselves as trans, as two-spirit, as third sex, as etc, etc and etc.
now. let's assume that mb1 is correct and also being rational. let's assume that being a man referred to by "he" was as simple as only being a descriptor of what was between a person's legs, what chromosomes they had, or what hormones were coursing through their bodies.
if that were really true, mb1 should be railing against the whole concept of a binary set of pronouns. if all we are referring to is a single physical marker and not coupling it with a whole conceptual understanding and identity that was both conscious and unconscious regarding who and what that person should and could be, then if he was truly about FREEDOM, as he so often claims, he should be calling for the abolishing of rigid binary based pronouns...
it would only be rational.
but he's not. rather, in the same ways that indians attached to the traditional class caste system tried to enforce the last name that a person was born into [it was in fact only a "biological fact" who that person's parents were] in order that they could define that person's potential, mb1 wants to ground a person's pronoun and everything that is consciously and unconsciously associated with that identity in "biological fact".
for me personally, i believe we as a collective are more able to reach our best and most when those, admitted minority of, individual's who experience these deep incongruencies are left to self define.
[i don't have time to address the mistakes he has repeatedly written regarding his so called "biological facts"... ultimately they aren't really important relative to the bigger issue that the concept of being male/man/he or female/woman/she or intersex/non-binary/they, as they are commonly and presently used, go far far beyond whatever so called "biological facts" we are subscribing to]
2. Meanwhile, the free-speech we enjoy in this nation is under perpetual attack, and there are LOTS of people here who would prefer us to be more like Canada or even Germany on that front. Our freedoms need continual and vigorous defense. And the surreptitious slide toward decoupling reference from reality must be called out for what it is.
this is, as far as i can tell, jordan peterson and fringe u.s. right wing media repeated bull shIt. i believe this not only due to being a canuck who is involved in queer culture, but more importantly due to having researched this for myself. assuming i'm correct in where this is coming from and to jump to the chase: while, imo, jordan peterson was correct that the university of toronto overstepped their bounds, he is also not a lawyer and i have not been able to find a single person with a legal background [including my own amateur one] who has actually looked at the ontario law in question and concluded that a person is going to be able to be sanctioned for not calling someone by a particular pronoun.
because this is the important part to understand. i nor anyone i know can force anyone else to call me or anyone else by the pronoun of my or their preference. that other outside person can always choose to use my first name or they can use "they/them/their" instead.
as far as i am aware, no tribunal/court/etc can sanction someone for solely failing to use a preferred pronoun.
otoh, what it can do, in ontario at least, is stop people within certain environments, from repeatedly and intentionally misidentifying someone by calling them what that other outside person feels they are [as mb1, peterson and those of their argument aren't even doctors, so really aren't in a position to authoritatively speak of "biological fact"]
while this is a subtle difference, it is an important one.
i am, and as far as i know the law is, cool with mb1 not calling someone by their preferred pronoun, as long as they aren't also then enforcing their own preferred...
see the quid pro quo?
but that's not what peterson, or mb1 are ever complaining about. they want free speech! according to them, they have a right to be in a working, professional environment and not only avoid calling someone by a pronoun of another person's preference, but they also have the right! to call that person by the pronoun they themselves [despite having no professional capacity] deem correct.
but then they couch it as if people are trying to control them... when if that was true, they would recognize that no one can stop a person from just using first names, or from using gender neutral language.
who is really trying to control here?
now, to show i'm serious about this and because mb1 seems to be a human of some means, i will make the same offer to mb1 that i made in another one of these perennial threads. he didn't respond, so in case he missed it, i'll give him another chance...
as legal systems are continually evolving things, it's entirely possible the canadian ones will overstep their stated bounds and someone will be sanctioned only for not using a pronoun, rather than only for intentionally and repeatedly using what they, as an outsider, deem as the correct pronoun.
if that were to happen in the next year in a provincial or national legal canadian setting i would give $1k to the defence fund of the person fighting that case [or to whatever cause mb1 chose - other than something that he personally and directly financially benefits from]. because as much as i disagree with mb1 and his position i have no issue with his holding and believing in it, as long as he is willing to respect those who hold and believe otherwise [by at least not intentionally misgendering them].
and so if someone had opted to use neutral language or not use pronouns and was still taken before a tribunal/court/etc i'd help them fight it.
otoh, if nothing like this happens in canuckistan provincially or federally, in the next year, mb1 would give $1k to the organization of my choice [and it would of course be lgbtq related].
the good thing about this, is that this will require zero research, as if it were to happen, the right wing u.s. media would have a collective orgasm as they brainstormed their headlines...
anyway that's all i've got for now.
the argument for me is simple:
when mb1 looks at laverne cox, nong toom or sophie wilson he sees "men" and he believes that anyone who disagrees with him, including the individuals who live in their own skins, are DELUSIONAL.
otoh, what i see in mb1 is someone who is delusional that they themselves are the ones that have sorted this whole human condition out and so are intent on constraining and controlling the human potential of others through the use of language...
and so i am thankful that many, and at least in the younger generations, most, see laverne cox, nong toom and sophie wilson as they see themselves: as women.
from my perspective the rigid binary system that is slowly sputtering on its last legs in the present moment, is just one more caste system that will ultimately be relegated to the dustbin of history [at least with regards to its recent western rigidity: i neither believe that it will nor believe that it should disappear, in its entirety...]
that said and in the end, despite living in my own body [and being hella relieved to put an "x" marker on my birth certificate and license last year] i'm open to being wrong and will continue to fight for mb1 and his fellow believers to believe whatever they like.
all i ask is that if they are dealing with me professionally they avoid using what i understand myself to not be and so stick to either first names or neutral gendered language [if it’s important for them to be intellectually honest to themselves].
whether he would be willing to do that or not... i don't know.
[this was edited to clear up a math mistake i made, regarding the number of self identifying trans folks in the u.s. presently and to attempt to make a bit of the language used less confusing]
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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the argument for me
from my perspective
A quick distillation of Wall of Text.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Yes, so good to know that out there is concious resonated
input and reflection.
Love and respect.
Edit: To nah000
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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I recommend the FX TV series Pose as an entertaining fictional drama touching upon issues brought forth on this thread.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Madbolters Revenge, symptoms; textual spewing of endless poo, followed by, butthurt explanations of whitebred thought.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2019 - 08:46pm PT
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Nobody can just tell you they don't need a doctor for medical FMLA.
Not at this moment. But nobody ten years ago saw even the remotest possibility that some "identifies as cat" would imagine to try her stunt either.
The point is that freedom and sanity in society need continual scrutiny and defense. And "freedom" does not include the freedom to force other people to talk to you the way you want! This thread is a classic example of that.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2019 - 11:35pm PT
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Well, Nah, you posted a pretty epic WoT yourself there!
I'm in a fairly exhausted state myself after just getting home from the office, but here's as brief a stab at a response as I can make. Skiing tomorrow, so gotta get up at an ungodly hour.
while mb1 has apparently made up his mind
It's an odd turn of phrase. People have beliefs, and they may even "strongly hold them," without having "made up their minds." We live in a state of, "This is how it seems to me based upon all the evidence I've encountered thus far." I've been waiting to see if there is real evidence to the contrary of what I believe, but this thread has been somewhere around 90% of the posts just sniping or making foul comments.
I've asked for arguments, and I've gotten rancid comments and a few superficial "arguments" that amount to "gender is a spectrum," while completely missing the points I have argued that that is an irrelevant aspect to this argument. Nobody seems to get that point, so that's, I think, what you're observing regarding "people have made up their minds."
i'll admit i haven't entirely made up my mind. that said, i don't have much use for people claiming to be "rational" and either being anything but, or starting their reasoning chains in falsehoods.
You are clearly referring to me, so I'm on pins and needles to see how I've been "irrational" or employing "chains of falsehoods."
mb1 says repeatedly that what he states are facts and that no one is willing to directly address said facts...
Okay, here we go....
this would be true if by calling a person he/man/male all we were referring to was that the particular person had a penis, or had xy chromosomes, or had the right range of testosterone [depending on what "biological fact" we chose to be associated with the particular words we were using]. but the reality has never been that simple. we as a western european derived society have built up a whole associative and connotative meaning that reaches directly towards an identity overlayed on top of the supposed "biological fact" [that in far more than a, dictionary defined, infinitesimal number of cases, is in fact not grounded in "biological fact"].
Wow, okay, that's a mouthful. But, distilled down, you seem to just be saying the very thing I argued against: Gender is almost entirely a social construct. But that's obviously not true, at least as a "primary" explanation of gender terms.
I have never denied that there are elements of social construct, and I've even talked in "assignment" terms regarding how gender makes it onto legal documents from a kid's first breath. I've actually argued that that process needs to be MUCH more rigorous than a mere morphological once-over.
But what I don't see how anybody can honestly deny is that gender terms DO correctly REFER in the VAST majority of cases! It is a fact that even the WHO flatly states (I cited it upthread) that this whole idea of "spectrum" is based upon a VERY few edge cases, and those edge cases only introduce a tiny ambiguity that is NOT the case with the VAST majority.
Finally, I've argued that ambiguous words, like "bald," do NOT imply that there are NO clear cases, and it is the clear cases that drive the "trans debate."
It IS possible for us to be clear, and clarity is what we should see in language, not intentional muddiness.
Then you say a lot about the social constructs that are built into gender pronouns, summing up with....
the trick is that when mb1 talks about "a mode of speech that smuggles in incorrect concepts" that is what the whole trans linguistic evolution is attempting to address: the assumptions that are "smuggled" and sometimes not just smuggled but also help to create the underpinning for violent control, for those whose physical bodies and identities are not in parallel with the majorities.
Now, however, we are talking about two entirely different sorts of "smuggled in concepts." You SEEM to acknowledge the ones I refer to. I'm not sure. But your emphasis is the more important ones are the social constructs that are smuggled into gender pronouns.
On that point, I entirely disagree. While it is true that actual people of various races, genders, sexual orientations, etc. have THEMSELVES been on the negative receiving end of social constructs, that is NOT because, for example, gender pronouns smuggle in violence!
If I understand it correctly, your argument would then be akin to the idea that we should abandon ENTIRELY the negatively-laden gender pronouns like "he" and "she" entirely. We should replace those "broken" terms like we replaced "colored people."
Okay, fine, but that's an entirely different point that I have been arguing. Again, that may be a worthy point. I haven't thought enough about that one to have an opinion yet. But it is a different point than what I've been arguing. And I would be VERY interested to see if the "replacement terms" themselves just smuggled in other baggage, such as that that denies the REALITY of gender as it is for the vast majority of people.
Finally, because there are sweeping legal implications surrounding gender, I remain committed to the idea that WHATEVER the terms are, they don't smuggle in "constructs" that just disadvantage entirely different sets of people by trying to "fix it" for others.
for mb1 there is nothing deeper to being male than either having a fully formed penis, or having xy chromosomes, or the right proportion of testosterone [i have to list all three, as i'm not sure which one of the currently known major objective attributes is the defining one according to mb1].
That's an amazingly uncharitable account of my position! Really. There's nothing deeper for me than that.
It's seriously hard for me to take your purported intellectual honestly seriously if that's how you sum me up.
otoh, there are hundreds of cultures both historically and contemporarily across every continent
Citation please. The WHO article I cited above mentions, I think it was, THREE examples. If there are "hundreds," I would expect to see piles of studies and articles, and I have pored over trans-promoting sites looking for this very data! I seriously do try to study the "other" view! So, citations PLEASE! I'd love to know about these "hundreds of cultures" that recognized the "trans debate" in anything like the form we see it today or that "gender is a spectrum" in anything like the sense that the arguments are made today!
including tens of millions of folks in the u.s. of a. at this moment who all say the same thing: while part of being male/female is the physical form, part of it is also something more and in some ways deeper.
Citations PLEASE! If all you mean is that "tens of millions" think that trans people should be supported, left alone, or just generally don't have any strong opinion "against" trans people, well, you might be onto something. But the content of the research instruments will matter a LOT, and I seriously doubt that you can produce a shred of rigorous evidence to back up your a*#ertion that the numbers are anything close to that high.
Worse, I can't tell from what you say EXACTLY what you think that these "tens of millions" believe! What EXACTLY does "something deeper" mean, how is that teased out in a research instrument, and how are the relevant data interpreted.
ALL you are really saying (without citation) is that you believe that lots and lots of people believe that SEXUALITY is a subtle and nuanced thing. But, even if you could cite rigorous studies to that effect, even that is a very different claim from the claim that "tens of millions" believe that "gender is on a spectrum" or any such thing!
Citations please!
Note that, thus far, you've drifted (probably due to the exhaustion you referred to), and you have YET to actually show where I've argued anything "irrational" or "non-factual." The BEST I've see thus far is that you ASSERT a pretty vague disagreement with my point that "gender is not a spectrum in the relevant sense."
Okay, I get that you (and pretty much everybody else here) disagree. But just disagreeing is not SHOWING. And ASSERTING things like "tens of millions" without clarity of what is being asserted and what research instruments you are citing, well, that's not even a hint of showing anything. It's just stating disagreement.
now what this more and deeper is termed, depends on who is doing the reporting and so while some refer to it as the "mind" they were born with, or the "heart" or the "spirit", the point is that those people report a deep schism between what identity others refer to them when using pronouns based in "biological fact" versus how they understand and experience themselves.
My point exactly! WHAT are we actually talking about, and: citations please!
depending on the culture and point in time those folks have referred to themselves as trans, as two-spirit, as third sex, as etc, etc and etc.
Citations please! From my own study on this subject, I find a TINY, infinitesimally small proportion of people that "report" as you say.
Your argument would be better cast as something like: Throughout human history there has been a proportion of the population that believed that there was something "deeper" to gender than can be captured in the traditional binary pronouns. So, there must BE something deeper!
But that is EXACTLY parallel to an argument that almost everybody here would flatly reject, although the argument appeals to the VAST MAJORITY of people throughout history, including the VAST MAJORITY in the USA today: Throughout human history, the VAST MAJORITY of people have had a "spiritual sense," that there is "something deeper" to reality than just what science can explore, so that they are drawn to religion and a sense of a Creator behind all the we see. Therefore, there must BE something deeper!
now. let's assume that mb1 is correct and also being rational. let's assume that being a man referred to by "he" was as simple as only being a descriptor of what was between a person's legs, what chromosomes they had, or what hormones were coursing through their bodies.
if that were really true, mb1 should be railing against the whole concept of a binary set of pronouns. if all we are referring to is a physical marker and not coupling it with a whole conceptual understanding and identity that was both conscious and unconscious regarding who and what that person should and could be, then if he was truly about FREEDOM, as he so often claims, he should be calling for the abolishing of rigid binary based pronouns...
Wow, SO much to say here. I could write a WoT in response to just this point. What I'll say in response will be necessarily inadequate, because there is just no way to cover it all!
First, you have NOT made the case that these "conceptual components" or "social constructs" ARE based in reality. See the point just above. You've STATED it, but without citation. And, as I've noted, your actual argument is parallel to one that almost everybody here would reject, despite the fact that if the numbers matter, the VAST MAJORITY have believe in God!
Second, I literally can't come up with a charitable way to see how you are making the leap from "if he was truly about FREEDOM, as he so often claims," to, "he should be calling for the abolishing of rigid binary based pronouns."
Are you saying that "freedom" means the freedom to make language just anything we subjectively want it to be? If so, I'd point you to Wittgenstein's "private language" argument. Beyond that argument, you'd need to dive deep into philosophy of language to understand the underpinnings of modern linguistics, so that you'd understand that you CANNOT just make language whatever you subjectively want.
Seriously, I can't figure out what you are arguing.
Finally, I HAVE argued that we could abandon binary gender terms entirely, if there was a social and LEGAL consensus! The problem is, and I've argued this very carefully, there ARE present legal ramifications to gender!
I HAVE argued that I wish that the government were entirely out of the business of defining a vast range of relations, from marriage, to "life," to gender, to sexuality, and the list goes endlessly on! The government defines such things (almost always badly) SO THAT it can manipulate the tiniest details of our lives and collect taxes according to those details. But that amounts to nothing more lofty than imposing a value-system on us, which is precisely what our founders tried to avoid in the formation of our government.
Now, AS I HAVE ARGUED, both sides of the aisle do NOT want freedom. They BOTH want control, and they just want to be the ones IN control. So, the battle between parties takes an "existential crisis" fervor, because BOTH sides are now actively seeking to utterly nullify the other side! Yet, both sides want nothing more lofty than to CRAM their set of values down all of our throats! As I have said repeatedly, there is NO high moral ground on either side of the aisle.
So, I believe that I HAVE argued repeatedly for the VERY point you now suggest! The problem is, you want that ONE point to come to pass without ANY other reforms that would HAVE to precede it! And that is what I resist!
If you want there to be no gender, then you have to take gender ENTIRELY out of the law, out of sport, and out of the courts (like, it can't be presumed that the woman gets child-custody, all other things being equal).
If you want gender to be on a spectrum, then you have to ensure that the social constructs and laws are FIRST fixed up to ensure that an infinite number of genders can "relate" in all the relevant legal ways. So, again, laws, courts, sports, taxable relations, and a whole other litany need to be fixed!
So, my argument if we're in agreement on those points would be: Hey, I'm not opposed to such a move, but you have the cart before the horse if your goal is to FORCE people to "use the right pronoun" BEFORE you have fixed at least the LEGAL ramifications of what "right" even means!
At present, "the right pronoun" really IS the one that has biological reference in the vast majority of cases! So, at least our laws, social constructs, sports, etc. are in almost all cases anchored in correct reference. You can't just throw all those facts out willy-nilly.
I ADVOCATE for abandoning government's getting into our value systems! But changing that requires changing everything from tax laws to torts! Not trivial. And it is NOT "at least a start in the right direction" to make gender terms FAIL to correctly refer in the majority of cases PRIOR to fixing the whole set of legal and social constructs that at present depend upon the "correct" use of those terms!
it would only be rational.
Absolutely! In the correct context. But context is everything!
but he's not. rather, in the same ways that indians attached to the traditional class caste system tried to enforce the last name that a person was born into [it was in fact only a "biological fact" who that person's parents were] in order that they could define that person's potential, mb1 wants to ground a person's pronoun and everything that is consciously and unconsciously associated with that identity in "biological fact".
False, as I've argued above.
My position has NOTHING whatsoever to do with religion, caste, privilege, a particular value system, or any of the pejorative notions that you are now "assigning" to me.
for me personally, i believe we as a collective are more able to reach our best and most when those individual's who experience those deep incongruencies are left to self define.
Absolutely! But now you're a classical liberal, like me, and you are committed to small government, no income taxes (which is THE way that the government most effectively imposes value structures on us), the government NOT having the power to manipulate the smallest details of our lives, the government ENTIRELY out of everything from marriage to abortion to, well, pretty much everything.
But, see, I don't think that you really ARE a classical liberal. You lean left, from everything I've read of you, and you DO want government IN pretty much everything. You just want to be the on the side that is CONTROLLING everything that matters to YOU in the way it matters to YOU.
By stark contrast, I don't trust YOU or anybody else with MY value structures! I don't want to control you, tell you what to prefer, or in ANY way FORCE you to think as I do! I'm no "right winger," and I'm not "classic Christian." I don't want theocracy and find the idea of it frightful! I have NO moralistic judgments to make AGAINST homosexuals, trans people, or anybody else except those who violate the negative rights of others. And I believe that the government we SHOULD have could easily support itself with a federal sales tax, by which it would be unable to manipulate the details of our lives and values.
But, correct me if I'm wrong on this point, you DON'T want a government like I've described! And so, I don't trust YOU to arbitrarily define gender pronouns cut loose from biological facts, because then there are horrific legal implications, and you have no interest in FIRST addressing those!
[i don't have time to address the mistakes he has repeatedly written regarding his so called "biological facts"... ultimately they aren't really important relative to the bigger issue that the concept of being male/man/he or female/woman/he or intersex/non-binary/they, as they are commonly and presently used, go far far beyond whatever so called "biological facts" we are subscribing to]
Okay, then don't "allude" to them. That's lame! "He's making piles of mistakes, but I don't have time to deal with them."
I've said just above that all these things you refer to are SUBJECTIVE "senses" of "gender" that are pretty deeply decoupled from the objective biological facts. Fine, but you wouldn't abide me citing such things to "show" that some particular RELIGION was "true" just because a lot of people FEEL that "there's something more and deeper than the scientific facts." Worse, you wouldn't want me to make LAWS on the basis of my subjectivity.
LAWS need to have as rigorous of a basis as we can get in every relevant subject. If you want gender to be decoupled from biology, then you need to FIRST ensure that the laws will work properly in that NEW context.
this is, as far as i can tell, jordan peterson and fringe u.s. right wing media repeated bull sh#t. i'm a canuck, heavily involved in queer culture, and have researched this for myself. while, imo, jordan peterson was correct that the university of toronto overstepped their bounds, he is also not a lawyer and i have not been able to find a single person with a legal background [including my own amateur one] who has actually looked at the ontario law in question and concluded that a person is going to be able to be sanctioned for not calling someone by a particular pronoun.
LOL... that's a good one. Part of THE reason why nobody is yet cited or in jail for not use a correct pronoun is BECAUSE of the froth that emerged surrounding Peterson's case. At the moment, Canada is in a state of flux, and it literally cannot figure out what it wants "the law" to mean! I'm not Canadian, but I have Canadian customers and friends, and I talk a LOT with them about this. At the very least, there is good cause for concern, because Canada has NO commitment to free speech anything like it's enshrined here.
And Germany is another case entirely! I can't take your "research" seriously when you say that my comments about Germany are "right wing media repeated bull sh#t." I'm NO right-winger for one thing, and I find faux news to be as disgusting as CNN or HufferPost. But Germany has NO commitment to the idea of free speech, and there ARE anti-offense and anti-hate-speech laws with people being arrested as we speak.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-accused-of-hateful-postings-over-social-media.html
And before you dismiss that one as, "Well, but those people were arrested for inciting violence," you'd have to dig in a bit deeper, because how such terms are defined is EVERYTHING!
For example, from the article, "Under German law, social media users are subject to a range of punishments for posting illegal material, including a prison sentence of up to five years for inciting racial hatred." Ah, and there it is: "Inciting racial hatred." Not "violence," not calling for violence! The bar is MUCH lower than that. The bar is "inciting hatred," and THAT bar is this....
https://www.economist.com/europe/2018/01/13/germany-is-silencing-hate-speech-but-cannot-define-it
And if you dig into the law itself, take an even broader look at the EU's total position regarding what all its member States should do regarding the illegality of "hate speech," and realize that Germany is the most prominent member to take this seriously! THIS is the wave of the future in the EU:
https://www.article19.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Germany-Responding-to-%E2%80%98hate-speech%E2%80%99-v3-WEB.pdf
Now, read that lengthy thing honestly and carefully, and see if you can come up with A rigorous definition of "hate speech"! It LITERALLY amounts to the vague phrase, "Incite hatred." Well, good luck with that!
And it's already here too!
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jun/13/jail-someone-for-being-offensive-twitter-facebook
So, don't be so blase' or accuse me of "right wing media repeated bull sh#t." That last article was from the frigging GUARDIAN, for crying out loud!
because this is the important part to understand. i nor anyone i know can force anyone else to call me or anyone else by the pronoun of my or their preference. that other person can always choose to use my first name or they can use "they/them/their" instead.
Yet!
as far as i am aware, no tribunal can sanction someone for solely failing to use a preferred pronoun.
The law in Canada is ABSOLUTELY consistent with the very interpretation you now deny. The fact that it hasn't YET been employed that way does not change the fact that it CAN be interpreted that way. Peterson is correct that it's a BADLY-written law if for no other reason than that it IS so ambiguously-worded. And Germany and the EU are off the rails on this whole "hate speech" thing, which, without scrutiny, is coming here! And it's a small, small step from "anti-hate-speech" laws to defining "not-preferred gender pronouns" AS "hate speech."
If you don't think that this trend is something concerning, then we simply disagree, and I think that you are a head-in-sand thinker on this point. But what I'm saying is not "right-wing bs," even if you prefer to simply disagree.
otoh, what it can do, in ontario at least, is stop people within certain environments, from repeatedly and intentionally misidentifying someone by calling them what that other person feels they are [as mb1, peterson and those of their argument aren't even doctors, so really aren't in a position to authoritatively speak of "biological fact"]
while this is a subtle difference, it is an important one.
It's a distinction without a difference! So, please do explain to us the "subtleties" of this difference. ANY way you cut it, this law DOES say that you are required to use "preferred pronouns," and that IS, flatly and undeniably, a law telling people that they must SPEAK as somebody else says they must speak!
Gag! I'll have NONE of it here, and THIS is the direction I'm most fighting about!
i am, and as far as i know the law is, cool with mb1 not calling someone by their preferred pronoun, as long as they aren't also then enforcing their own preferred...
see the quid pro quo?
I see what you THINK is the quid pro quo. But I've read the text of the law, and I cannot make heads or tails out of what this "enforcing" to which you refer could be about. No individual, without force of law, can FORCE another person to speak to them as they wish! The law is so insufferably ambiguous as to be worse than useless: It's dangerous, which has always been Peterson's point about it.
but that's not what peterson, or mb1 are ever complaining about. they want free speech!
Wow, now you're just on a roll of straw-man statements!
they have a right to be in a working, professional environment and not only avoid calling someone by a pronoun of another person's preference, but they have the right! to call that person by the pronoun they themselves, despite having no professional capacity, deem correct.
I EXPLICITLY said the OPPOSITE of what you now claim! I REPEATEDLY referred to "legal" and "work-relevant documents." I REPEATEDLY stated things like, "As an employer, I look at a person's drivers license and other work-related documents, and whatever gender those state is it. End of story for me."
So, where do you get off, in the face of such CLEAR statements to the contrary, ascribing to me the idea that "I'll just willy-nilly call people whatever I feel, regardless of ANY facts" or anything like that!?!
See, I took the effort to respond to YOUR WoT because you were seemingly trying to engage in reasonable discussion, unlike the majority of the noise on this thread. YOU, I thought, were contributing to the "signal" in the signal-to-noise ratio. But when you start saying that I'm saying the OPPOSITE of what I have clearly stated, then you lose a lot of credibility on that front!
but then they couch it as if people are trying to control them... when if that was true, they would recognize that no one can stop a person from just using first names, or from using gender neutral language.
who is really trying to control here?
And now MY BS meter is flashing read, and the needle is pegged!
As Happy herself noted, the whole idea that you can engage in business-related conduct using ONLY first names and terms like "they" is ridiculous! Moreover, it is NOT a matter of "control" to say, "Look, your drivers license and every other bit of legal documentation I've got here says that you are male. So, just because you now 'prefer' to be referenced with female pronouns, I'm not going to do that."
I wrote entire POSTS devoted to the fact that none of us can "lift the skirts" of other people. To the extent that gender matters according to the LAW, then the State is responsible to ENSURE that IT gets this right on legal documents!
My POINT has perpetually been that the trans person cannot just switch away from their LEGAL documentation and on their PREFERENCE ALONG expect society to suddenly comply with their NEW preference! There are LEGAL implications that are pervasive and sweeping. And it is NOT a mere matter of preference to "assign" gender.
If you want the government out of gender entirely, then eliminate most of FMLA and other such laws! Eliminate marriage laws and the tax implications. Eliminate a whole spectrum of laws, such that gender does NOT need to be rigorously defined! But UNTIL you do that (which is a pretty thoroughgoing and sweeping reform), GENDER MATTERS, and it is NOT arbitrary or on a spectrum LEGALLY!
So, quit straw-manning me.
now, to show i'm serious about this
And then there's your little bet offer. Well, $1,000 isn't too much. The problem with the bet is that you are using it to make a point that is absolutely not valid. Your argument goes basically like this:
1) If there is something to worry about regarding free speech in Canada, then there will be somebody at least tried for not using preferred pronouns within the next year.
2) There was nobody tried for not using preferred pronouns in that year.
3) Therefore, by modus tolens, there is nothing to worry about regarding free speech in Canada.
I think that that is a charitable and formally valid account of the substance of your bet. I simply deny that the first premise is true. The time frame is very short, and the effort to make sense of this law is going to take much longer than a year! It might take longer than a decade. Literally, who knows?
The mere fact that the law is on the books, written as it is, should be deeply troubling to anybody who cares about free speech, and I personally know a large number of Canadians who ARE deeply concerned about it.
Meanwhile the EU position is increasingly off the rails regarding free speech. And, as I cited above, here in the USA, people are being arrested ONLY for saying something "offensive."
So, your bet is posturing to make a point that is false on the face of it! There are continual attacks on free speech around the civilized world, and HERE in the USA people ARE arrested for "offensive" speech. Fact.
So, how about this bet: If any US CITIZEN has been arrested for merely engaging in "offensive speech" (no inciting to violence in the case), then you pay me $1,000. If NO US citizen has ever been arrested merely for engaging in "offensive speech," then I pay you $1,000.
I put it to you that if you accept the bet, you've already lost, and, by YOUR form of argument, there is a LOT to be worried about regarding free speech in THIS nation, forget about the rest of the civilized world!
the good thing about this, is that this will require zero research, as if it were to happen, the right wing u.s. media would have a collective orgasm as they brainstormed their headlines...
Isn't it ironic that the article I cited about this VERY thing happening IN THE USA, was written up by a LEFT-wing rag, the Guardian?
when mb1 looks at laverne cox, nong toom or sophie wilson he sees "men" and he believes that anyone who disagrees with him, including the individuals who live in their own skins, are DELUSIONAL.
FALSE, and a pretty ridiculous straw-man.
I see PEOPLE, and I literally have never "lifted their skirts" to know ANYTHING about the biological fact of the matter!
I care about the fact that there are LEGAL and language implications to saying that people can literally change their gender AT WILL. There are objective facts of the matter that are anchored in biology, with the VAST majority of cases falling into two groups: male and female.
If the State were entirely out of gender definition, which is what I would prefer!, then I couldn't care less about how a person "identifies." IF they, in fact, identify not in accordance with the actual biological facts, then they are delusional. But I don't care! I'm delusional in countless ways my self, and I'm not saying that dismissively. We are ALL delusional, usually in ways we will never even identify in ourselves.
But, as long as the State IS in the gender game (in any way), then there are legal implications to "getting it correct," and THAT process must be anchored in biology, which would imply a biological basis for at least three designations where we have traditionally had two. When it matters LEGALLY, you don't get to just "feel" your way through it. And then, delusion legally matters too! So, with the State in the gender game, SOMEBODY had better be lifting the skirts, preferably at birth, and preferably rigorously rather than merely morphologically.
When there are legal implications, you do not get to FORCE me to "use your preferred pronoun" when that pronoun comes apart from what the STATE calls you. Take it up with the STATE if you have been "mis-assigned." Meanwhile, I'll call you what the STATE says you are.
That position is a FAR cry from your straw-man assessment!
otoh, what i see in mb1 is someone who is delusional that they themselves are the ones that have sorted this whole human condition out and so are intent on constraining and controlling the human potential of others through the use of language...
What I've seen in SO many of your posts at this point is that you pretend that you're all "moderate" and "thoughtful," but in actuality, you just assume your own interpretation and impose it on the people you argue with.
I AM delusional, certainly in ways I have not myself identified. But I am most certainly NOT attempting to control others through language!
If there was zero (or extremely small) chance that I'd be put out of business or end up in jail due to saying something "offensive," I'd have NO ax to grind here. But I've just seen too many times, including here in Colorado, that people are literally destroyed over language, and if you think that we have "free speech" in the USA any longer, it is YOU who are delusional on that point.
from my perspective the rigid binary system that is slowly sputtering on its last legs in the present moment, is just one more caste system that will ultimately be relegated to the dustbin of history.
Fix up how the State does gender FIRST, and then you'll have my attention and support. But what you don't get to do is NOW tell me that "gender is a spectrum and doesn't really matter" WHILE the LAW says otherwise.
all i ask is that if they are dealing with me professionally they avoid using what i am not and stick to either first names or neutral gendered language, if they want to be intellectually honest to themselves.
As I've said, not gonna happen in the present legal climate. And that has nothing to do with "intellectual honesty."
Get the State out of gender and get gender out of the law, like FMLA, and you'll have my support. Until then, gender is legally viewed as binary, and that notion is all through our legal system. You cannot change the "social construct" by force by itself without literally destroying people until you FIRST get the State out of gender. I'll refer to you as the STATE does. Take it up with the STATE.
Y'all wanted crap like FMLA, you got it, and it has BINARY GENDER implications! Now you get to sleep in the bed you made. You want the State involved in more and more and more fine-grained details of our lives. Then, when you're not the party in power, you weep and howl like babies. You never tumble to the fact that this entire nation has become TOXIC, and it's not because of "meanies" like me who just won't go along with your agenda. It's because your agenda has its own version of FORCE all built into it! You want everything that FMLA does, but you don't want the BINARY GENDER implications that are built into it.
whether he would be willing to do that or not... i don't know.
Now you do know. Take it up with the State.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Easy to see mb1.
You're full of hate.
Need lots of words
to make it clear.
Thanks for that.
Peace be with you.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2019 - 11:57pm PT
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^^^ Wow!
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Mad, I've been working hard to read your posts and filter out the bs on this thread in doing so.
However at this point I'm just glad you kept it brief but here's as brief a stab at a response as I can make. and are going skiing tomorrow.
Wish I could too...so crank some turns for me.
I'm going to need the weekend to read your "brief" though...
cheers,
oh and very interesting post nah000
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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It is dense and lonely.
It is sad and crying loudly.
What is it?
Mad
It's not a real man because it's afraid of words.
It's not kind because it's small minded and selfish.
What is it?
Mad
It's not a grownup because it cries and doesn't listen.
It's not healthy because it throws it's poo.
What is it?
Mad
Mad
Mad
Mad
What a chicken little it is.
With it's angry capital letters.
And ludicrous intellect.
It must be mad.
Mad
Mad
Mad
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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I still can't figure out why it's even a problem for some that someone identifies as/wants to be addressed as whatever gender (or no gender) and why it deserves so many words (or any discussion, for that matter) - ??
And yes, the State will eventually eliminate all notion of gender - once anonymous job interviews (synthetic-voice over) will be implemented and mandated - hopefully soon.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mad probably has a lot of homoerotic fantasies that shames itself and cause itself to protest far too hysterically. Methinks it doth protest too much.
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