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WBraun
climber
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Why not have 2 or 3 belay-quality placements between climbers *at all times* when moving together?
You can have 10 even.
But climbing is still with the freedom to CHOOSE.
Rock police will be the end of free will and the further continuing encroachment of robots, zombies, clones, and the souless ......
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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rgold sez (and this seems right):
"The description is consistent with the top pair simulclimbing with protection between them that failed when the leader fell ... the anchor left for the third consisted of two bolts and a cam placed above them. This is in line with a philosophy of possibly taking risks but not imposing risks."
Chief asks why only one piece placed on the easy part. I find that the most successful climbers trust their gear the way we trust the brakes on our cars. 70 mph off a freeway to a stop sign, we never give a second thought to the brakes failing. We touch the brakes and we know how well they work, and that is why we drive 70 mph.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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But climbing is still with the freedom to CHOOSE.
As long as the second climber CHOOSES to accept the risk of the leader placing zero to minimal gear between pitches, then I suppose it's all good.
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okie
Trad climber
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I never liked simulclimbing. But then I'm not a speedster nor alpinist. Folks are way too casual about it nowadays. I usually say no when friends want to do it unless it's for stretching the rope a bit.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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HK: Yes, these two choose to climb together, as they had done so many times before.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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k-man - I wasn't referring to them specifically, which is why I wrote: "the second climber".
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Why not have 2 or 3 belay-quality placements between climbers *at all times* when moving together? I shudder at the thought of ever settling for anything less.
It is typical for many climbers of all types to use minimal protection when climbing below their limit. This is part of a speed and efficiency philosophy that has been in operation for many years and well before any of the current events.
When simulclimbing for speed (as opposed to just stretching out a lead a bit), one wants to minimize the number of times the second has to catch up to the leader and pass back the gear, as has to happen once the leader runs out. So there is an intrinsic incentive to keep the number of placements made by the leader minimal in order to prolong the amount of ground covered in simulclimbing mode.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Denver CO
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Their methods don't sound more dangerous than aid climbing, desert towers, or moderate mountaineering when you consider the storms. Well below base jumping, imo. Even with minimal gear, the odds of one of them coming off was very low. I remember walking around on Mammoth Terraces unroped until a climber in another party told me I was making him nervous and could I please clip in, lol. Now it's hard for me to imagine that mindset, but I can't second guess their risk calculations and considering the long-term trend towards gyms and bolted routes, I'm glad there are people doing traditional climbing at this level. Although, I am not really a fan of speed climbing, and think the haulbags should have the right of way.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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You guys and your reading comprehension posts are high key ironically hilarious.
g-house
Jun 4, 2018 - 10:19pm PT
The article seems to read: Jason falls 200', the rope behind a block stops him...
JLP
Jun 4, 2018 - 10:20pm PT
^ Where did you get 200m? You made it up and posted it as fact.
I know an " ' " and an " m " are small, but isn't small what reading comprehension is all about? But the "you made it up and posted it as fact" was just the cherry on top.
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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Oh boy, here we go again. I have had several close friends leave via climbing accidents adventure accidents, a couple of suicides too. Words never suffice for the loss, especially for immediate family.. this blog again has become a meditation on death and climbing. So many facets and so many different ways of examining these challenges. Jason and Tim were 2 superb examples of not only being incredible climbers but evidently really wonderful human beings too... Their lives now over were a gift, especially for those who knew them. I suggest for consideration that Their deaths can also be a gift. It is purely dependent upon ones mindset. Please don’t misunderstand me. I am not in the least lesoning their lives or their demise. They truly lived.. and now are truly gone at the height of their powers.. this is a shock load on the psyche. A crisis, yet contained in this fire of suffering is an opportunity. If we look closely Every crisis contains an opportunity. It is dependent solely on the individuals mindset. Personally I prefer to Seize the Opportunity. Their lives for me radiate inspiration and bonafide excellence.
My takeaway, Dream big, Dig deep, go for it as hard as you can, continue to improve your skill set and knowledge base.. it goes..
Again my deepest condolences for family and friends..
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I know an " ' " and an " m " are small, but isn't small what reading comprehension is all about? It is. He edited his post - quite a bit. [and then deleted it...]
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CarolKlein
Ice climber
Chamonix
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Rock police will be the end of free will and the further continuing encroachment of robots, zombies, clones, and the souless ......
But what if bad arse applauds had a different criteria: They set good gear. And moved fast doing so.
A difference to: they moved fast much in part because they placed arguably minimal gear.
(Caveat: Such may not be the case with this accident. Such may be.)
I can’t figure the value in promoting a Naked Edge speed record moving frisky with poor second-chance gear as a central stratergy to being the fastest. Why were we being told to give attention to it and believe it’s a brilliant achievement?
Anyone got a break down on how using riskier stratergies has contributed to quickening the nose speed record? And how did that record even become ‘a thing’? What was missing from the scene which the record fulfilled?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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I would like to know the average age of the fatalities and near misses of the past few years. I think it's hard for all of us to process that our skills lie more in our mind than our body at a certain age. We're just a second or two slower, we can't grasp quite as hard as we did or hang on quite as long. It's such a small difference it's imperceptible yet could make the difference with extreme sports. Athlete's in other sports retire at an early age, perhaps climbers should think about giving up certain activities at a certain age, even if they've done similar feats multiple times.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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In the wake of the tragedy...
Not a sprinter in sight. The monkeys aren't sending.
🐒
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Condolences to the bereaved.
A ways back in this thread, and this could easily be misinterpreted, I am interested in Tom Cochrane's "snatch".
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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The near misses are just as important in industrial safety as the accidents.
Maybe as climbers we should talk more about near misses as this may help us make better decisions.
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Robinson
Trad climber
Chattanooga
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Echoing what John Long posted earlier ... I've lost track of all the names of climbers I've known over the years who've either died climbing, or been seriously injured. You just can never let your guard down ... even on the easy stuff or on terrain you know well and/or feel comfortable on. Tragedy can strike in an instant. A snapped flake, "solid" looking rock blowing, a muscle cramp, a wasp sting, dripping water greasing holds -- you name it. It all happens. All of us who've been at this game for any length of time have had LOTS of close calls, and are lucky to be alive. I'm just really, really sorry for these super nice guys to go out this way, and for their grieving families. You guys doing the speed climbing on El Cap ... throw in a couple of extra pieces here and there. You can still break records and climb a just a little safer. We don't want to be reading a thread like this about any of you.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2018 - 09:35am PT
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Tragedy can strike in an instant. A snapped flake, "solid" looking rock blowing, a muscle cramp, a wasp sting, dripping water greasing holds -- you name it. It all happens. All of us who've been at this game for any length of time have had LOTS of close calls, and are lucky to be alive. I'm just really, really sorry for these super nice guys to go out this way, and for their grieving families. You guys doing the speed climbing on El Cap ... throw in a couple of extra pieces here and there. You can still break records and climb a just a little safer.
I totally agree Robinson. Nice sentiments.
By the way, I see your avatar name and that you're from Chattanooga, are you Rob Robinson? I climbed in the deep south (now live back home in California) for 10 years and always saw your name on all those big burly roof routes in the Dixie Cragger's Atlas. Some days I miss the T-Wall, Tallulah and that sweet southern stone. Take care and say hello to Waffle House for me.
Scott.
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pssesq
Trad climber
Modesto, CA
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can anyone confirm or deny that a haul bag landed on one of them or their protection from above? complete tragedy. some things can not be avoided by the climber.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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As an old climber I'll add my sentiments here, too.
In my experience, no one goes out to climb with the intention of dying in the process. The unique setting, the physical and mental challenges, and the personal accomplishment of being able to move in an improbable setting have rewards that are often difficult to articulate, even to ourselves.
One doesn't know where the "edge" is until pushed up against it, and in climbing that often takes us perilously close to death. The possibility of death is a distinct feature of climbing, it is a boundary we approach as a personal choice. Distinguishing the boundary's edge depends on many factors, and experience can play a role, but as we spend more time climbing our awareness of being closer than we thought plays a larger role in our choices.
So we decide whether or not to continue to seek those rewards, perhaps we are content with what we would consider "lesser" goals, or perhaps we cease to participate at all. After a time the inevitable tragedy of fellow climbers dying while climbing tally up and we can no longer maintain the fiction that climbing could be "safe," we might revert to trying to make it safer.
Tom and others raise this possibility, that we could adopt practices that would greatly reduce the likelihood of death. The lessons of an organization whose entire being revolves around such practices had two major fatal catastrophes, the second after years of studying the first, and implementing policies, methodologies and technologies with the aim of preventing just such a repeat occurrence. This an admonishment as we attempt to learn as much as we can, as we should, from these recent deaths. But our ability to anticipate and mitigate risk limited, the answers to our question will not inoculate us from future tragedy, that lesson we older climbers know too well.
As Werner said, if we seek these grand challenges our successes are great, but so too our failures.
And in the end, we make the choice, and that includes subjecting those around us, our families, friends and climbing colleagues, to the consequences of those choices.
I don't know how to answer Jan's question on a personal level, my weekend spent climbing with a lead that was by far my hardest in a long while, in seeming control, the result of training and preparation. If there was an "edge" I didn't perceive it, my focus was in that moment. My choice entirely, each move, all the way to the anchors. A great personal accomplishment at my age, a mastery of not just the route, but of my own physical and mental state.
In a very small way, we all confront our personal "grand challenges," and the consequences.
This is of no consolation to those affected by our choices.
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