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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 27, 2018 - 08:52am PT
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He explained the weapons get there either through gun trafficking, thefts from homes and businesses, or "straw purchases," that's typically when someone prohibited from a buying a gun convinces someone to buy the gun for them.
Thank you for the rest of the story. See all that we can learn on this thread!?
Now, please explain what gun-control law (that we don't already have in place) would keep those guns out of DC. Theft, trafficking, and straw purchases are already illegal.
You know, it just occurred to me that hard drugs are already illegal too. Yet, shockingly, there seems to be a robust black-market for those too.
I guess that that's because the DEA (and State and Local law-enforcement) has failed to reduce the quantity of drugs on the streets. Perhaps the ATF will do better when guns (or certain sorts of guns) are banned.
You know, come to think of it, there are millions of illegal aliens in the USA as well. I guess that law-enforcement can't keep those off the streets either.
With thousands of miles of border, North and South, the US is gonna have a serious problem keeping ANYTHING off the streets that people want ON the streets.
But, yeah, more laws. That'll fix it.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 27, 2018 - 08:56am PT
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Not sure who here is arguing to "ban guns." Certainly a more tempered approach makes sense. To deny that legislative options to reduce the harm of illicit drugs don't exist is beyond artifice, c'mon MB1. I can think of several legislative option that could reduce drug violence and death in this country: decriminalization, enhanced treatment, etc.
You're preaching to the choir about prohibition being a failure.
It is unrealistic to keep "all of those guns" out of DC, sure. There is no magic solution, but one must certainly consider that doubling of arms manufacturing in this country in the past decades could maybe, possibly be in some way related to increased access, legal or otherwise.
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RussianBot
climber
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Feb 27, 2018 - 08:59am PT
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The above is a good example of why liberals are so confused and impossible to reason with.
Really? That’s a partisan difference?
News story out last night that Georgia Republicans are threatening to stop a tax break for Delta because they cut ties with the NRA. The Republican governor said this tax break would “keep Georgia competitive as a major international hub.”
What changed? Delta cut ties with the NRA. So now the Georgia Republicans are saying “corporations cannot attack conservatives and expect us not to fight back.”
Somehow Delta making a business decision to no longer offer discounts to NRA members became a partisan attack. So the Georgia Republicans are going to do what’s right for conservatives by shooting Georgia in the foot and killing this bill that they think would benefit Georgia economically.
Their identity is so wrapped up in their partisan identity as conservatives that they’re going to support that identity over their responsibility as Georgia public servants to do what’s right for Georgia.
Good luck to us finding a way to work this out together. We all might need to shed a little of our partisan identity and rhetoric.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:04am PT
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Is arming some teachers guaranteed to work?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:05am PT
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Not sure who here is arguing to "ban guns."
Actually, if you read the entire thread, you'll see that it commonly comes up. In particular, this thread has repeatedly advocated banning all "assault-style weapons," such as the AR-15.
The idea of banning comes up repeatedly and regularly in liberal circles, and this thread is no exception.
Certainly a more tempered approach makes sense.
I absolutely agree! Of course, as I keep saying, the devil's in the details. Consensus is hard to achieve on the details. But I sure don't thwart the ideas in principle. For example, I have repeatedly said that I'm behind universal background checks, even though I believe that that will have little effect.
To deny that legislative options to reduce the harm of illicit drugs don't exist is beyond artifice, c'mon MB1. I can think of several legislative option that could reduce drug violence and death in this country: decriminalization, enhanced treatment, etc.
Oh man! You are spot on, and I mean that. Early awareness/notification of a nut-job that is going off the rails would be a big help too! We KNEW in advance that this most recent nut-job was off the rails, yet he passed a background check in the full-face of tips the FBI had on him.
You're preaching to the choir about prohibition being a failure.
Amen and amen.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:08am PT
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no one-sentence zinger of a solution will work. that's the problem, it's more nuanced than simply "enforcing a law," esp since we see that LE is not entirely, well, up to the task of enforcement.
I guess what I'm saying Jody is that It Takes A Village. You should read it sometime. bwahahaaha.
Totally hear you MB1 on the way that folks (my partner especially pisses me off with this) fail to understand that the "Assault Weapons Ban" was just a "Hide Them in Your Basement Suggestion" or are unable to use proper nomenclature to discuss the devil machines that they're so afeared-of.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:09am PT
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Is arming some teachers guaranteed to work?
You're asking the question in loaded (backwards) fashion, imo.
Nobody's advocating FORCING teachers to be armed, as some have alluded to upthread. Instead, people like me are advocating that teachers who WANT to be armed (and can show that they've been trained) should be ALLOWED to be armed, so that they are not FORCED to be helpless victims.
But even ALLOWING trained teachers to be armed is not a "fix." Until we get serious about having cops onsite, in the halls, at all times that children are present, and we ADVERTISE that fact nationally, we won't convince nut-jobs that softer targets are to located elsewhere than in our schools.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:09am PT
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Indeed, thebravecowboy.
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JSJS
climber
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:13am PT
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Jody:
Thanks for the reply. Just a couple of points.
1) The article points to a spike in UK murders in of 89% suggesting this means gun control isn't effective. Note that 58 (out of 846) of these were in one incident where immigrants were suffocated in a lorry/truck:-), which largely accounts for the anomaly
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/250902/crimestats.pdf
I don't know details of the other statistics presented but quite possibly there are similar issues.
2) My point was really about whether gun control reduces gun crime, not crime generally. I know things aren't simple, but the post of yours I was replying to suggested controlling guns wouldn't prevent the "spree killings", I'd suggest the evidence from the UK and Australia is that is does (we've had one in 25 years post Dunblane).
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RussianBot
climber
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:15am PT
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Ok, Jody, so now the problem is that it’s too much of a burden to expect people in this conversation to press the previous button in order to understand what was said by you in the conversation? Do I as a liberal need to quote the entire thread in my post to avoid being characterized by you as a butthurt moron, and have you conflate those characteristics with all “liberals?”
I won’t conflate your nonsense with you being a conservative. I’ve seen plenty of other conservatives who I admire.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:21am PT
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So I guess what is being said is that there is inadequate tracing of guns.
There is nothing in the Second Amendment (or even Scalia's twisted interpretation of it) that disallows tracking guns.
Create an (on-line) national registry now!!!
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JSJS
climber
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:21am PT
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Madbolter:
If people are telling you there are virtually no guns in the UK, they are mis-informed. There are quite a lot but all licensed and tightly controlled. For a licence, you need a reason to own one (self-defence isn't a reason, but e.g. hunting is). As above my point wasn't about relative crime rates, but gun crime and mass-shootings (and more widely gun injury/death) rates.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:22am PT
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Anyway, joining to give the finger to the anti-NRA people.
Your brilliance and mindfulness about why you’d join an organization is overwhelming.
And you wonder why some of us worry about the thinking processes of those that MUST buy assault style semi automatic weapons...oh and add enhancements. If their thinking is as simplistic as yours, there is indeed great cause for worry. These mass shootings are pretty much “giving the finger”.
Susan
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:24am PT
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Have you been a law-breaking student in a HS anytime in the last few decades MB1? No and no, I know. :-)
As a malcontent teen, I gained access to the skeleton key to my HS - way easier than it should have been. I used every nook and cranny of that school to further my nefarious doings....(mainly fingerbanging on the catwalks above the natatorium, neither here nor there), completely free of repercussion. Administrators and such never had any idea.
The Cops at School thing will work just great until it fails spectacularly. These kids sit and brood in the classroom, sit and brood in the hallway, they're observant and not entirely dumb and certainly are not cowards, as Jody says - hey are bold enough to do (or try) what they aim to do.
They will sit and wait, observe the slovenly, bored, weighed-out-the-odds and-it-ain't-probably-happening-here donut-heads. Armed copper didn't do shite here, and if we up the numbers and the firepower of Pigs-in-Schools, all that is needed is a dedicated duo of school shooters with a little tact, planning, diversions, etc. More armed men in our children's schools will work until it fails spectacularly. And the fact is that militarizing our schools will spur and inflame the angry young men already on the edge of such violent outbursts.
If you give them a harder target, a sessile bored cop with a sweet Bubble-Burst score and a rifle and some mags....you're just gonna pass over that AR and its little .223 maiming rounds to the first angry teen that slits the first cop's throat from behind. Or will we have SWAT gear on our Pigs-in-Schools?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:39am PT
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The Cops at School thing will work just great until it fails spectacularly.
But that statement is true regarding anything we try. Even if the USA became the most totalitarian regime in human history (not in my lifetime, please), we can see from other nations that have tried it that gangs and black markets just become the more robust. It's impossible in principle to police a nation. It's just a game of whack-a-mole.
However, that said, cops-in-schools DOES work. I was a substitute teacher in San Bernardino and Riverside public JH and HS, and most of the schools I taught in had limited entry points with metal detectors, and they had cops roaming the halls. The gang problem was so bad that these measures were deemed necessary.
Yes, there were still fist-fights between gang members, which the cops quickly broke up and even arrested some. But there were not weapons incidents.
We have better technology today, and we can have a less "apparent" cop presence. Surely you can't say that airport security (as bungling as IT is) hasn't worked. The mere fact that terrorists know that EVERY plane has multiple plainclothes sky-marshals onboard has contributed to the fact that post-9-11 has been safer air-travel.
It's all about the perps knowing what they now know regarding planes: You poke up your head, and you are instantly put down!
We can't be strong everywhere (in fact, that's one argument for an armed citizenry), but we CAN choose our battles. And it seems that protecting schools is a spot where we should be strong!
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:39am PT
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:41am PT
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In total agreement about metal detectors MB1.
Not too many mass school shootings in those districts you served*, IIRC, though. So maybe the Cops in School thing works there. Still, when you turn to face the middle-american suburban teen ängst and rage at the status quo, the absolute fury toward authority that many young men (perhaps rightly) feel, and then furnish them with them an outright militarized oppressor...seems to me that it might inspire greater (and maybe even more catastrophic) incidence of that which it is intended to curb.
*and thanks for that, what a hard job!
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:44am PT
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forget about school shootings for a minute, too easy soft targets
armed guards in each hotel room facing the Vegas concert area would have stopped that massacre
armed guards in every Florida gay night club would have stopped the Pulse massacre
see, what you libtarbs fail to understand is that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun
and ordering all flights to have locked cockpits would have prevented 911, see "Israel"
these mass murders have been going on for a long time here in US
and that is just the price we pay for our FREEDOM, deal with it Libtards, LOL, Snort
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 27, 2018 - 09:51am PT
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We have better technology today, and we can have a less "apparent" cop presence.
I haven’t checked in since post 170 yesterday morning. You guys are doing strong work,
at least as measured by electrons wasted. I proposed metal detectors that would automatically
lock the perp in. It can’t be that big of a challenge and wouldn’t require as much of a police
presence on campus. Waiting for a Second Amendment repeal or for all gun owners to be
buried with their weapons (as Bravecowpoke proposed, albeit tongue-in-cheek, hopefully)
might not be as efficacious.
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