Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
Nero, Ryan, Flake, McCain, Cruz- All the frauds are holding their noses long enough to administer the poison pill (Tax Reform).
Once deficits explode, the stage will be set to pull the plug on vestiges of the New Deal and Great Society and shred regulations.
Americans have clearly shown that they are too easily fooled to raise taxes on the wealthy, close tax loop holes, address entitlements in a reasonable manner and reduce the military budget to get control of our debt.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
Looks like a bumper crop of California nuts this year!
|
|
Norton
climber
The Wastelands
|
|
Looks like a bumper crop of California nuts this year!
as one would expect from the most prosperous, innovative state in the union
where net tax dollars go out of state to help the "red states"
I'll take fruits and nuts all day long
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
I'll admit to only having read the title of this thread. Oh I scrolled down and tried to read some of the (I'm sure they were most interesting and insightful) posts, but it was too much. Please, I apologize, but if I can let this video speak to my thoughts, we can all grow and have the discussion on the less important things like this critical topic you want to discuss later.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Well, that felt good. The days are rushing by children, it'l be over before you know it. Now Chris, bring the banhammer again.
CU all later hopefully.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2017 - 10:32am PT
|
|
|
guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
|
|
Couchmaster........ good to see you back.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
@NutAgain!, not trying to be too harsh here as you seem to be more thoughtful and engaging than most liberals I've met. Still, I'm wondering how you reconcile the two statements below--both yours. Particularly your stated contempt for "flatlanders" and "cheapskates" even as you say all the right things about equality. I don't hold your position on the hill against you, but you're clearly at or near the 1% threshold. I would just ask you to reflect on whether the crushing boots you describe are your own.
I live in a tall house located high on a hill, about as much privacy and space as we could afford within reasonable work commuting distance of a dense part of Los Angeles. The windows and sliding glass door are designed to maximize my expansive view without concern for line of site from neighbors.
I paid big bucks for my view, not so some cheapskate living in the flatlands below me can mess it up and invade my privacy.
The changes afoot, which are different variations on the themes of ruthless pursuit of power that have always been afoot, are not within our individual power to stop. But if we raise our voices and call out the sh!t where we see it, and we help wake up the people around us, and encourage more of us to engage in our civic duty to vote and give feedback to our elected representatives, we will over time improve the quality of our government and it's ability to regulate the forces that conspire to undercut our collective well-being.
When we give up hope in that system, the only alternative is acceptance of a boot crushing our faces and taking everything we have by force. Some people feel like that already, but there is always room for it to get worse. And it will get worse until enough people feel enough pain to take action to avoid that pain.
|
|
Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
|
Ho man.... what's all this about an encryption key??????
|
|
10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
|
|
Lituya, how about posting up a climbing tr, brah?
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2017 - 12:56am PT
|
Hey Lituya, been busy doing errands and yard work and my regular paid work...
I think the first quote of mine was from a discussion about drones? I don’t remember exactly. There was a moment- only happened one time- when a drone was hanging out in front of my window in a way that would allow an anonymous person (I don’t know who it was) to take mostly naked pics of me in my living room or bedroom. Pretty sure that was the context for that message. “Flat-lander” would have been used tongue in cheek.
The deeper question or inconsistency I think you are trying to reconcile is my semi-affluence (depending on your frame of reference), that I embrace my pleasures that would not be possible in an “equal” society, and yet I seem to be supporting societal equality.
Here’s the deal. I don’t believe that all wealth should be EQUALLY distributed. I do believe access to opportunities should be equally distributed so that the effort we put into life has a bigger role in determining what we get out of life. I do believe in property rights today (though I also believe that most property ownership goes back to some violent act of a stronger person taking from a weaker person). I think there should be differences in income that align with value generation, as measured by supply/demand, but the differences are magnified too much today because the value of money itself for begetting more money has created a sort of feedback loop that makes an unreasonably big divide between the rich and poor in our society. I think government regulations should exist to continually interfere in the natural feedback loop that gives those with money too much power over those without. Government regulations should also hold all entities accountable for the long term costs of resources they exploit- such as the environmental destruction by chemical emissions or delayed health impacts from toxic food. Since companies can declare bankruptcy after the owners have extracted profits without the risk part, and then the owners can regroup in a new company and do it all over again, we need governments to make regulations to have companies pre-pay into escrowed accounts for their future environmental damage or health impacts. If this was done, then a lot of the bullish!t that companies do would be gone. The real costs over time would make certain practices untenable.
I digress.
I am pro-capitalist, pro- personal incentive, but I also believe in government regulation to keep a level playing field where natural dynamics would cause the stronger parties to reap all the rewards while all the rest are left with as close to nothing as possible. Government regulation is what creates the freedom for buyers and sellers to walk away from a transaction, by supporting alternative choices and giving more access to information and making sellers pay the full costs of their production so they sell for a price that reflects the true costs and so the market can decide whether those costs are bearable.
So take the good parts of competitive capitalism and the good parts of socialism :)
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2017 - 11:12am PT
|
NutAgain!, thanks for the thoughtful reply. A lot you and I agree on--in fact most of it. I guess it's just a matter of degrees, e.g. to what extent government should supplant and/or intercede re the market and personal wealth.
Re private property, there are certainly western roots that lie in Locke, The Enlightenment, Enclosure Acts, etc. And yes, the change was violent--but better than what was before, IMO. Still, we play the cards we're dealt today and are free to suffer varying degrees of guilt for the flaws of our ancestors. Despite my badgering, I certainly don't think your property ownership is worthy of any guilt. It sounds beautiful. As long as the individual down below can aspire and work toward the same, I'm good too. (And yes, please shoot down his drone. I recommend 20ga w/#6 steel shot.)
It's a tough balancing act. Wealth is generated through three basic mechanisms: Wages, profits, and rents. While capitalism embraces all three, socialism seems uncomfortable, at a minimum, with the latter two. And that's a big problem from my perspective. Even where I disagree with you in scale, I may concede that capitalism must, from time to time, be protected from itself. Teddy Roosevelt knew this.
Anyway, refreshing to hear a self-described liberal also express support for capitalism. It's getting harder and harder to do.
Edit: I'm no Peter Singer fan, but we share a common meta-view of capitalism. Here's one of his quotes:
Capitalism is very far from a perfect system, but so far we have yet to find anything that clearly does a better job of meeting human needs than a regulated capitalist economy coupled with a welfare and health care system that meets the basic needs of those who do not thrive in the capitalist economy... If we ever do find a better system, I'll be happy to call myself an anti-capitalist.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2017 - 11:25am PT
|
Most liberals believe in capitalism. what we have trouble with are people who believe that capitalism means that the market should control everything. Free market is a misnomer. It should be a regulated market. I refer back to your quote..
regulated capitalist economy the bold is mine.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2017 - 07:47pm PT
|
Barry Schwartz and Kwame Appiah have written about this. Schwartz is especially convincing in The Costs of Living. Not sure how you quantify the social fabric such that it would ever appear as a billable externality. Especially versus the jobs and dignity that businesses produce. IMO he fails to explain this. In any event, tampering with the status quo too much, too fast is courting disaster--and maybe even bloodshed.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Dec 15, 2017 - 11:11am PT
|
Obstruction of justice--for collusion that never took place.
Desperate.
Moveon.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Dec 15, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
|
Wealth is generated through three basic mechanisms: Wages, profits, and rents.
Actually the three mechanisms are labor, land and capital. Interestingly, labor creates capital, capital does not create labor.
Some Republican president agreed with that:
Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=29502
It's also interesting to note that when it comes to standards of living European social democracies lead the list, the capitalist paradise comes in at #18.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-full-list
|
|
Norton
climber
The Wastelands
|
|
|
Dec 15, 2017 - 12:16pm PT
|
yes, no collusion ever took place between the Russians and members of the Trump team
Denial, it's not just a river in Egypt
close your eyes and stamp your feet three times, there was no collusion, there was no collusion
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Dec 15, 2017 - 01:14pm PT
|
Just pointing out an inconsistency in your basic mode of attack:
close your eyes and stamp your feet three times, there was no collusion, there was no collusion
Close your eyes and stamp your feet three times, HRC's email server was nothing criminal, nothing criminal, nothing criminal....
Whatever interpreted "rush to judgment" you condemn the Right about regarding Hillary's server is the very M.O. of the Left regarding the supposed collusion.
Of course, it goes without saying that those of you seeing collusion are going to see collusion. Most of the rest of us are suspending judgment until all the facts see the light of day.
But stark contrast, what HRC ADMITTED about her email server was flatly and obviously in violate of the relevant statutes (I've posted on other threads tabular comparisons of what the statutes say and what HRC admits). No "interpretation" is necessary, and "intent" appears nowhere in the statutes. And Comey even threaded the verbiage needle by carefully saying phrases like, "Extremely irresponsible" instead of its linguistic equivalent that appears in one felony statute: "Gross negligence."
Let's see: "gross" = "extreme," and "negligence" = "irresponsibility".
Oh, and the DNC's manipulation of the election, THEIR collusion with the Russians, and CNN's collusion with HRC... you have NOTHING to say about that sort of crap. That's all good, and "nothing to see here; move along."
If you're going to issue such confident pre-indictment judgments, at least you should apply consistent modes of evidence-evaluation. Partisan-motivated rushes to judgment never do that, of course.
How about this compromise? Both HRC AND Trump for prison? How about that as a fair and just compromise?
Carry on.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Dec 15, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
|
A year into this so-called investigation and nada re collusion. Let’s see some facts—or shut er down.
What’s coming to light is even more terrifying—that the FBI and other US intel agencies appear to have taken sides in an election and then used a known-fake dossier to get warrants from a judge. When you hear libs and assorted DC elites harping on about how stupid the electorate is, well, you have to wonder just how committed to democracy these folks really are. Sounds more like “we know best.”
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!