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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Nov 29, 2006 - 09:55am PT
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weschrist: "I find it funny to watch people like Mimi twist over their own false interpretations of what I am saying. I like to watch people's bias come out and confront them."
so you're saying you're a troll...
Nah, I'm the troll. :)
Wes is trying to suggest some sort of coherent cross-generation compromise position. Despite the inflamitory humor, he's got a serious (non-trolling) point. If you old guys don't try to make some sort of sense to future generations (perhaps through something like what Karl Baba was suggesting), once you're all dead, guess what will be left over? People who think more like me than like Wes.
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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:10am PT
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I think "ground up" makes better climbers.
Precisely backwards.
The best ground up ascents have been done by climbers who "train" by hangdogging and using top-down tactics.
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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:12am PT
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I've mentioned before the fact that surfers overall respect and revere their elders' accomplishments. That's because every surfer coming up had to summon up the exact same goods and skills as their parents and grandparents to surf the same breaks. They also still have that respect because you can't 'bolt' waves in any fashion.
You obviously think that young climbers don't respect their elders. But what you're missing, Joseph, is that there are a lot of elders out there to choose from, and not all of them are worthy of the same kind of respect.
I respect people who adapted with changing times or who helped revolutionize climbing in their own time. The people who were willing to use controversial or even taboo tactics and techniques when they made sense.
I don't care too much or have much respect for those who responded to change by chopping bolts, sabotaging hangers, starting fights, or giving up completely. That's just sad.
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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:15am PT
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Holy Hannah, did you just say bolts are beautiful? WTF, WTF, SERIOUSLY WTF???
I like shiny things.
Bolts are the devil!
Ahhh, I love the smell of religious fervor in the morning.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:25am PT
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You myopic little f*#kstain,
What kind of legacy will you be leaving when land managers close areas to climbing permanently because of scenic degradation? The whole world doesn't climb, and even of the people that do, not all see bolts the way you do.
The end result of your philosophy will be the prohibition of rock climbing on all public land.
And if you think climbing isn't about adventure anymore, then why the hell do it? What is it?
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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:37am PT
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The whole world doesn't climb, and even of the people that do, not all see bolts the way you do.
Nor do they all see them the way you do. I encourage you to ask some of your non-climbing friends how they feel about bolts. (You'll have to make sure not to bias the answer in the way you ask the question.)
And if you think climbing isn't about adventure anymore, then why the hell do it? What is it?
Umm. It's fun.
Sheesh.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 29, 2006 - 11:04am PT
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Another shining example of cluelessness from the Lone Star state.
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Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2006 - 11:09am PT
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The recent development of tow-in surfing developed for big waves will no doubt now be used on far smaller waves so folks can have 'brilliant experiences' without suffering the challenges and risks of actually getting out and catching a wave themselves or getting themselves out of harms way after a dive. That pretty much creates trad and sport surfing. Still, the waves themselves and many of the risks associated with surfing them will remain unchanged. Every ride is a new and unique wave and in some ways it's too bad rock can't similarly cleanse and replinish itself after every climb.
Nice analogy, can we talk about "tow-in" surfing now?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Nov 29, 2006 - 11:22am PT
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Lynn Hill, FFA of the Nose...trad/sportclimber
Tommy Caldwell, America best climber...trad/sportclimber
Huber Brothers, Numerous BW FFA's ...trad/sportclimber
Ron Kauk, America best all-around climber...trad/sportclimber
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 11:55am PT
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Bob, the folks you listed are all awesome and accomplished climbers, but I certainly would not label them career sport climbers. Not that you were, just a point.
Sport climbing is such a tiny backwater of alpinism that to summarily label anyone that is not doing them much service. I find it amusing how many climbers on this forum label themselves as sport climbers. The notion that traditional climbing is dead or on the wane is merely a whitewash tactic that's been used for decades to get the climbing community to accept more bolting.
ECF, that 80% statement was provided by Joe I believe, but thanks anyway.
Edit: Oh and Wes/frac, you should view the real Ground Up thread called Welcome to Kevin Worrall. That is, if you can handle the cleaning bill.
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Nov 29, 2006 - 12:08pm PT
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My motivation for posting in this thread and on this forum is to show that "hope is not lost" for the future. I don't want Jello or the rest of the old guard to totally lose faith.
I am 25 years old. Before a serious injury (skiing, not climbing), I climbed as much as I could - ice, rock, plastic, etc.
Fracture arrogantly claims to represent the future of climbing. He acts as though climbing has evolved and that everything that has gone before will slip away - inevitably and unstoppably.
This is absurd.
I don't deny that the majority of climbers these days start in gyms. It is true.
However, that does not negate the fact that there continue to be large numbers of climbers who value risk and adventure. The percentage is not what it once was, but it is there. All of my good climbing partners have valued these things.
Additionally, Fracture stands as yet another individual giving Texans a bad name. I grew up as one, left, and have now been forced back.
Even Texas has its share of people who climb outside of gyms and above pro.
And Bob - Kauk as the best all-around rock climber in America? How do you figure that? (Aside from longevity...)
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jstan
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 12:09pm PT
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I have a question.
Some number of posts ago the question, ”Who owns the rock?” was posed. After many hours of diligent and frankly painful research I have come up with the answer. Whomever possesses legal title to the land, in many cases some level of government. Sometime ago at a meeting on JTNP the park supervisor said, “It is our job to manage the park”(as a public resource).
More than thirty years ago, as regards other issues, many of us felt the special interest group comprised of climbers( we are a special interest group just as are the logging and mining industries) were well advised to work together and reach a consensus. Potentially it would be a painful process and whatever any of our opinions, no one of us would get all that we desired. Evenso, such is still preferable to argumentative inaction. Because consensus and proactive response would allow us to sit at the table as partners and to provide useful counsel to the managers when they settle on resource management policy. If we decide not to compromise and build consensus on the present issue we, in a very real sense and for whatever reason, have decided to let others decide our fate.
As I did before, I still think this is a most foolish decision. So then, if we have decided not to act together each of us is now free, individually, to express our opinions as taxpayers to appropriate governmental functions; and to join with other non-climbing organizations with whom we agree. This has been thirty years in the making.
Are we now finally to that point?
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 12:32pm PT
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Wes, again, get past the ownership thing. How does a route get deemed classic and hence untouchable, in your mind? You refuse to answer this repeated question.
I've also asked you for your list of 'dead' routes a couple of times. What routes are you talking about? Is this just a bunch of generalized belly aching or are there specific climbs you'd like to dumb down?
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Nov 29, 2006 - 12:39pm PT
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Wow!! Some things never change. Just a bunch of name calling. Everyone just reacts but nobody listens. The only ones processing what they read are Jello and Karl.Its not what they say so much as how they say it. You can tell they are thinking about it not just reacting.
If you want anything out of this thread, other than a soap opera, go back and read their posts.
Jello, I already had a ton of respect for you as a climber but now I have even more as just an awsome person.
Jeff
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
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jstan, with individuals like you and other notable wise climbers in the mix, I hope that if we are at this point with the government, that you all would be at the table.
Wes, if they're around Tahoe, I've possibly already visited the areas. I thought you had some specifics in mind. Your use of the passive voice is stunning regarding the community. What is your criteria for making these determinations? How can some miserable neglected route become suddently so exceptional for you with the addition of bolts?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 29, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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ECF wrote
"What kind of legacy will you be leaving when land managers close areas to climbing permanently because of scenic degradation? The whole world doesn't climb, and even of the people that do, not all see bolts the way you do.
The end result of your philosophy will be the prohibition of rock climbing on all public land."
There are plenty of problems with bolts but it is an extremely rare case when their visual impact to the public is one of them. We slab climbers all know what it's like not to be able to find a bolt that's right in front of you.
Land Managers respond to other factors first. Accidents and fatalities breed concern and publicity. Impact to vegetation and erosion above and below cliffs is a larger environmental impact than bolts and that might be a reason to allow rap routes where walk offs once sufficed.
So their is a pro and con case regarding bolts and access. Bolt chopping wars and involving authorities in bolt rules almost never favors climbers and should be avoided in favor of community concensus and dialog as much as possible.
Peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Nov 29, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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Mimi wrote: Bob, the folks you listed are all awesome and accomplished climbers, but I certainly would not label them career sport climbers. Not that you were, just a point.
Mimi...the point I am trying to make is that these climbers use both type of climbing to push standards to a higher level. You have to be blind/dumb/ingorant not to realized what sport climbing has done to help these folks reach their lofty goals.
Tommy Caldwell used sport climbing to accomplish his ascents on El-Cap.
My personal opinion on Ron Kauk. Big Wall climber (a5), elite bouldered, amazing trad climber and 5.14 sport climber.
Not too many of him running around.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
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That's true Bob, but ground up traditional climbing is what shaped them to be the great climbers that they are. The technical advances aided by abundant pro is old news. It's been the Eurostyle disclaimer for decades now.
Just curious, if the Huber brothers do a continuous hard pitch that has only two bolts on it, is it a sport pitch or something else?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Nov 29, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
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Mimi wrote: That's true Bob, but ground up traditional climbing is what shaped them to be the great climbers that they are. The technical advances aided by abundant pro is old news. It's been the Eurostyle disclaimer for decades now.
Your distaste for sport climbing is really showing.
What made them great climbers is that they embraced sport-climbing and used it to push standards higher.
The reason why the Hubers can do a pitch on El-Cap with just two bolts is that they have done thousands of hard sport climbs with bolts.
Do you sport climb...or just whine about it???
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 01:35pm PT
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Who's whining? Since returning to the west, when I have time to climb, I do not spend it sport climbing. I respect sport climbing for what it is. My main knock on sport climbing is the general attitude I see on this forum. Several of the anonymous and combative posters label themselves as such and don't seem to have a full appreciation or grasp of the total climbing game. I think if a climber only knows the gym and sport routes, they miss out on a ton of what climbing has to offer.
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