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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Feb 14, 2018 - 03:31pm PT
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Dead cat bounce.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 15, 2018 - 09:33am PT
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Well, his house is still worth the tour every few years. I don’t get paying $12 Large for a chair
built by one of his minions. Paintings by Botticelli’s students don’t bring $20 million, do they?
The cat is bouncing higher as we speak. Markets are now up for the year.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2018 - 10:39am PT
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Reilly! Gud catch on noting that as of now, the markets are up for the year.
Here's a snapshot of S&P 500 gains as of a few seconds ago.
YTD Return %
1.76%
6-Months Return
10.34%
1-Year Return
15.45%
I'll be dipped in dog-schist!
The markets shrugged off inflation data & got to taking advantage of bargains.
Of couse, the fat Trump hasn't sang yet.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 15, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
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The volatility is annoying, but the fundamentals still look good.
Isn't the Chinese symbol for "crisis"" the same as for "opportunity"?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2018 - 01:26pm PT
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TV! Per your mention: Isn't the Chinese symbol for "crisis"" the same as for "opportunity"?
I seem to recall that, along with the ancient Chinese curse:
May you live in interesting times.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 15, 2018 - 01:32pm PT
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TV, you don’t have to self-incriminate but I find it quite the coinkidink that Warren Buffett piled
into Apple a day or so after you did. jess sayin’...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 15, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
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I don't know if interesting is a curse, but sure describes my life.
My broker just called to compliment me!
His Corvette is faster than my Z4, but I am more nimble.
He is a bond guy, but during the course of our relationship I have gone from being worth 2/3 of his net worth to him being 7/8 of mine.
Bonds are just a reserve. Stocks will get you rich if you can sack up.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 15, 2018 - 01:35pm PT
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Is Warren still making the calls?
Glad to see they bought at over $3 over my average cost.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 15, 2018 - 01:44pm PT
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My broker just called to compliment me!
The 80s called--they want their brokers back!
(Sorry, just the concept of a broker in relation to stocks isn't something I've thought about for a long time.)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 16, 2018 - 08:45am PT
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That dead cat is bouncing like a nerf ball!
And for those of you of a more nerdy bent...
...and the justification of my transfer of equities into bonds last year:
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2018 - 10:21am PT
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Reilly: Thanks for the charts. Per your transferring mostly to bonds last year, I took a quick look at my Vanguard funds YTD this morning.
All the bond funds are in the red by 0.1% to 2% ytd & all the stock funds are in the black ytd. Part of the joy of owning bonds in a rising interest rate environment.
Of course, in the long run, you'll be drinking fine wines in Europe & I'll be making wine out of moldy apricots here in Choss Creek;)
That "Dead Cat" is bouncing darn good this week. Supposedly this is the best week in the stock market since 2011. Those who have been waiting for the bottom to buy, may well have missed it by a week, but they can always wait for the next bottom, which is on its way.
The great thing about waiting for stocks to bottom, is that markets always eventually tank, at some point.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 16, 2018 - 10:28am PT
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Fritzi, I’m actually 50:50 eq:bonds, because I’M GREEDY! Yes, I knew the reallocation would
be a little painful for a while but at this point I’m more concerned with conservation than
accumulation, kinda like wine making. 😉
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 16, 2018 - 11:41am PT
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My broker is also a friend, a member of the tribe, and a trusted advisor.
He looks out for me, answers my call 24/7, and would bail me out with his own money.
The '80s calling? Lucky me!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2018 - 07:15am PT
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I share a link to an interesting (to me) article in the Wall Street Journal today. I find it interesting that once you get away from their editorial support of Trump & his tax cut, their writers share real concerns about what it may actually do for, or to, our economy.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/spotted-some-possible-good-news-in-rising-bond-yields/ar-BBJtakP
Certainly economists are treating White House forecasts of a productivity renaissance with skepticism. Nathan Sheets, chief economist at PGIM Fixed Income and a former Treasury official, expects the Trump tax cuts to boost economic growth by 0.5 percentage point or a little more for each of the next two years. But he predicts only an annual 0.1 point extra on long-run potential growth, resulting from higher corporate investment.
The huge federal deficits likely to be incurred in the latest U.S. budget come at a time when the jobs market is already tight and there are signs that wage rises may, finally, be accelerating.
The tax cuts add fiscal fuel only poured in this amount into a late-cycle economy twice since World War II, according to Gerard Minack, of Sydney-based Minack Advisors: the Vietnam war spending of the late 1960s and the 1986 Reagan tax cut. In both periods bond yields rose sharply as inflation picked up, while stocks soared, plunged and then soared again before the eventual recession.
These thoughts on when rising bond yields start to effect the stock market, were of the most interest to me.
The problem for shareholders watching the bond market is that rising inflation expectations are good for stocks until they are bad. One theory for why is simple enough. When investors are worried about deflation, higher inflation reduces the danger and so helps stocks even as it pushes up bond yields. Deflation fears have now gone away, so the question is at what point inflation fears will take over, and rising bond yields be bad for stocks.
One answer is when yields reach the point where they anticipate the Fed actively trying to slow the economy. Higher yields will no longer mean higher profits, leaving nothing to offset the hit to valuations that comes with a higher discount rate.
In economic terms this means bonds being priced for an interest rate above the so-called neutral rate, either because inflation is getting out of hand or because the Fed has made a mistake; either would be bad for both shares and bonds. Fed policy makers estimate the long-run neutral fed-funds rate is 2.8%, about where the 10-year currently stands, but bonds typically offer extra yield to compensate for uncertainty over their term.
Credit Suisse’s chief U.S. equity strategist, Jonathan Golub, thinks the switch happens at a 10-year yield of 3.5%, above which further rises start to be progressively worse for stocks. He derives the number by looking at how stocks performed just on days when yields rose, with a strong relationship since 2014 showing stocks gained less the higher yields were.
In the past the number was much higher, averaging above 7% since 1980, but Mr. Golub says it has dropped because investors, like the Fed, think a weaker economy can’t cope with such high rates as it once could.
Bank of America Merrill Lynch analysts say the “sweet spot” for shares is a 10-year Treasury yield between 1% and 3%, with stocks more likely to fret about rises above that.
Investors shouldn’t get hung up on any precise number, as the turning point is inherently uncertain and shifts with changing beliefs about the economy.
What is more certain is that there’s a regime shift under way. In the past few years investors justified buying shares at very high valuations because bonds looked even worse. As Treasury yields rise, expensive shares will look less attractive—so companies will need the prospect of big rises in profits to maintain their appeal. The more it is real rather than nominal bond yields rising, the better for shareholders.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 23, 2018 - 08:26am PT
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Reuters today:
The U.S. Federal Reserve, looking past a recent stock market sell-off and concern about inflation, said it sees steady growth continuing and no serious risks on the horizon the might pause its planned pace of rate hikes.
"The economic expansion continues to be supported by steady job gains, rising household wealth, favorable consumer sentiment, strong economic growth abroad, and accommodative financial conditions," the Fed's Washington-based Board of Governors wrote in its semiannual report to Congress on monetary policy. "Upbeat business sentiment appears to have supported solid growth over the past year."
The Fed noted that even after the sell-off, and taking account of the higher corporate profits likely to flow from the recent tax cuts and support higher stock prices, "valuation pressures continue to be elevated across a range of asset classes, including equities and commercial real estate."
The use of leverage "has been increasing in some areas," the Fed said, noting in particular "the provision of margin credit to equity investors such as hedge funds" and other parts of the "nonbank financial sector." Household debt has also risen as has business sector leverage "particularly among speculative-grade firms."
Still, the Fed said, "overall vulnerabilities in the U.S. financial system remain moderate on balance," with banks better buffeted against any trouble due to their "strong capital position." Even at their current high level, the Fed noted, stock price-to-earnings ratios were still below those during the exuberant late 1990s.
In general, that document portrayed an economy whose households had achieved record levels of wealth - by September 2017 household net worth was 6.7 times disposable income, the highest reading in that series - with no obvious instabilities to risk continued steady progress.
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Net worth = 6.7 x disposable income? I have been telling La Femme we aren’t spending enough.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2018 - 08:57am PT
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Reilly! Per your remark: Net worth = 6.7 x disposable income? I have been telling La Femme we aren’t spending enough.
Last year, the old saying: "I've got more time than money" popped into my mind while reviewing our finances.
I later reported to Heidi that unless something goes very wrong, it strongly appears "we have more money than time."
She of course, immediately added the corollary, that we obviously need to spend more money.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 23, 2018 - 09:04am PT
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Fritz, I’m concerned that I’ve more money than time. And based on what I’ve experienced at the hands of ‘medical science’ lately I need to start spending a lot more. I’m on record with La Femme - we go business or you go alone - I’m KNOTT riding in back with the crankloons!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 24, 2018 - 05:54pm PT
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Came to the same conclusion recently. Need to spend more and enjoy life, can't take it with me.
Of course I'm in the market for brood mares. They say if you have to ask what it costs to keep horses you can't afford to, so my perspective might change.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 24, 2018 - 06:56pm PT
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Interesting article on Reuters today- Warren Buffet says anybody in bonds is stoopid. 😳
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