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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Greg,
I go 4" from an old hole if it is un-useable. I go 9" between bolts at anchors. (tip of little finger to tip of thumb. I like an anchor spread out a bit. I don't feel too good about those close together anchors I find.
Edit;
Greg,
I am pretty pickey and study the placements real well.
2 shoes,
Yea, I would prefer to go further but there are so many factors to consider. I really worry about about making the clip easier or harder, thus changing someones masterpiece. I do stuff like to try going away or closer at a 45 degree angle so as to not change the difficulty. I really anguish over this stuff when I cannot use the same hole. With the modern pulling tools available today, I am happy to say there is seldom a need to move a hole.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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One thing that Ed Leeper made clear to me was how important he thought it was to mix batches of bolts, to protect any single climb from having a string of bad batch bolts. He thought it better to even mix different styles of bolts. I thought it at least sounded like an intelligent way of thinking.
Locker, I've never been the life of the party! Maybe you can sell me a few of your jokes! You've really got a gift you know.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Speaking of anchors,
My choice would be 12" apart with a 3rd bolt on big wall anchors.
My choice, again, would be 9" on free climbs because that is near perfect with ASCA double ring hangers, and a 3rd bolt 12" away in the direction of the route to act as a directional so as not to load the anchor in case of a leader fall before protection can be placed. That is how I would do my anchors if it was my first ascent. But I am a bolt replacer; I replace bolts in existing holes, but........I aways add a 2nd bolt at 1 bolt anchors if back-up cannot be placed.
Yea, I ADD BOLTS!!
Fire away.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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You mean you're a retro-bolter? Whoa!
Roger, I've seen at least once where a bolt has gotten pulled, re-drilled and then very small surface cracks had appeared, in time, at least I had thought so. Not sure if they could have been there even before, but maybe the tiny hairline cracks had grow just enough to be more evident?
I've seen one top rope anchor set up very apparently make some more cracks. The rock on the top of this one big boulder was a bit hollow sounding.
There was another climb that I belayed a buddy on, and he climbed up the steep front face of this huge free standing flake that was just perched up against the middle of this 200' wall. He had climbed a 30 foot 5.8 off-width, started up the flake, getting a little pro here and there. Got to a descent stance and, pulled up the drill in tow, drills a single 3/8' wedge style bolt right in the center of this 30' tall x 15' wide x 2' thick flake. Bolt goes in nice he gets to the top of this flake, gets pro at his feet, plus one bolt up high on the main face, and then brings me up, to finish the short steep face above. I came back to repeat this nice little 5.10a about a year later, and lo and behold, that single bolt in the middle of the flake has a hairline crack running diagonally completely across the flake intersecting the bolt. Again, this had occurred during that one year! Just goes to show you the power a bolt can exert. I'm sure there had been no crack when I had followed up the first year.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Two-shoes,
There are lots of questions and I beat myself up pretty bad seeking out the best solutions. I worry about damaging the rock or drilling a bad hole. I am always looking for a better way, never a easier or faster way. 1 a day or 10 a day, is all the same to me. Lately the direction has been to not even scar the rock at all. I have been making long, thin, wide tuning forks in my shop and using 2 from opposing sides slowing working them in to lift the hanger just enough to slide in a thin aluminum spacer. Then driving them again but now all work is done between the spacer or spacers and the hanger. Hopefully this approach of pressing the spacer down againist the rock while the equal pressure is forcing the hanger up will keep damage to a minimum. We have come a long ways from the crowbar days of the past. Even the #4 lost arrow tuning forks that are the standard are being pushed aside as being too violent as they tend to bend the bolt and spawl out the hole. Replacing a bolt and having someone trust their life to my work is something I don't take lightly. You can rest assured I am doing some of my best work out there.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Roger, I totally agree, You are doing a great job. I know that you don't get enough praise, but thank you! Thank you!
You have a background as a carpenter, am I remembering correctly? I have used a sort of straight bladed claw hammer for many years to remove bolts. I slot the blades so that they will accommodate a 5/16" Rawl bolt. much like the lost arrows have been revamped. After I drive this hammer under the bolt just a little, with the aid of my trusty Yo, I then drive the head area of my claw hammer straight down. Bolts will pop right out very easily. Anyone who has seen this system would like it, I believe. Easy to make for a machinist. If you have a few diamond bits and a big Dremel Moto Tool you can do it yourself, if you hold your tongue right.
I like your thoughts on protecting the rock face. How would a 6" slotted flexible painter's broad knife work for an operation like that? The aluminum must take a pounding, no?
Do you have any good ideas on granite patch work? Thanks in advance!
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Thank you Clint! Most informative video.
Roger, I like your system. I notice that you don't wear any ear protection. Save those ears of yours. That stuff will make your ears ring!
Roger, I have a question for you? What if a Bosch pneumatic-actuated drill could be taken apart and made to drive by a brace-and-bit modification, so that there was now no electric motor, only your own body power, wouldn't this be legal (if it was feasible to make?) I think it could be as light as about 5 lb drill possibly.
Again, not motorized!
Just a brain fart I came up with.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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two-shoes,
I made reamer out of a 1/2" to 3/8" Hilti power tool adapter re-worked to fit a snap-on rachet wrench this off season to replace my old one made from a worn out wilderness drill and lower quality rachet wrench. I needed something a little heavier and more quality. Reaming out that first inch or so on 5/16" holes solves the stuck bit problem but it is a real workout with a drill bit. Good I guess, if you want a deformed fore arm like Pop-Eye:-) I have been working the thought of a hand drill where as you turn, the bit is lifted and a spring drives the bit back down when you reach the top of the throw. Hand impact driver? I am waiting for a ratchet tap handle to arrive UPS today to work with a modified HHS 3/8" reamer (can't afford Carbide till I test it) that I hope to try out next week in the valley on 5/16" buttonheads. I like your idea of re-working a power hammer drill to replace the motor with human power. I will be looking for a broken Bosch Bulldog at garage sales :-) Maybe post today on the Craiglist Wanted section. My wife will be feeding me dinner in the shop now. LOL There are a lot of really smart people here on SuperTopo, maybe someone will pick up on our ideas and run with them.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Roger,
I just e-mailed you with an idea. Will be eager to hear from you.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Wow, I had forgotten about the reaming difficulties;
had just been thinking about how to get the 5/16" out.
I remember now doing one at the first belay on Ankles Away -
it took me a really long time.
I imagine Roger has already looked into drill bit tips with 4 points
instead of 2 points?
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Clint,
I tried one of those a friend me gave as a gift and I chipped one of the 4 the first day. I have been reaming with a solid carbide Bosch Extreem that Greg gave me a while back. Those don't chip but they ream pretty slow and take a lot of downward pressure. I reamed one out hanging under a roof last summer and it damn near did me under. I knew then that there had to be a better way. We will have fun trying out the new toys this season.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Bruce,
Oh yea,
That is the one, but at $104.10 for 3/8" diameter is too much till I know for sure if it will even work.
I got one from ENCO in Reno in High Speed Steel for $11.03 delivered. (15% off+free shipping)
I locked it in an old Jacobs 1/2" chuck secured with a set screw and drilled in a set screw for the 3/8x24 bolt at the other end and will lock the ratcheting tap handle in the bolt end today.
You need a handle of some sort as it will be really hard to turn.
(power drilling would never be able to control the amount of rock to be removed as these things are made for a lathe or milling machine.)
The problem I see is the cutting action is at the sides vs. a drill that cuts only at the end. (the problem with trying to ream with the "ol Bulldog") I know you are a hand driller, not suggesting otherwise:-) Just a little general info. for some of our friends who are not.
I will keep you up to date on what happens when I try it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I have had a real problem with Rawl power stud Part# 307312 I have placed about 100 of these bolts and had about 6 of them loosen up. The cone is at a steep angle compared to red head WW-3830 and hilti Qwick bolt 3. My feeling is the collar pops off the cone and the bolt loosens up. they are still a bitch to clean at that point but with a lot of wiggeling and patience you can often get them out without special tools. pretty effin scary! In at least 2 cases I suspect that they were spinners and someone without a wrench tried to tighten them up by tapping in with a rock? this will pop the collar off the cone and with the sharp angle of the cone on the Rawl Power wedge no ammount of wrenching will make it catch again. it just becomes a loose ratteling mess. when you look at the specs for this bolt it is NOT rated for use in stone.http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/07424CS.pdf the Red head WW-3830 that I am useing now is rated for both concrete and stone. It has a much shallower angle on the cone as does the Hilti kwick Bolt3
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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I have friends who swear by those, while I prefer the 5 piece. I am not sure if the power-stud has a letter on the top to tell you it's length or if that is a thing of the past. An "A" is the shortest and may have only 3/4" or so in the rock. I have always felt that however the hole is drilled, that first 1/4-1/2" of rock may be damaged and not totally up to par.
That said, I really think that everyone out there placing or replacing bolts is trying to do the very best job they can. There are just so many issues to deal with and so much information to "need to know"
I hand drill and I feel it is pretty much brainless. (Great for me)
Where as with power drilling, it so easy to mess up that perfect hole the thing was meant to produce. Just last year at work I was chastized for letting the bit chatter at the bottom of the hole. I was just trying to make sure the hole was, for sure, at the required depth. I never heard of that before, but after a lesson of how a hammer drill works, it made sense.
Like, it is way hard to ream out a hole a little, when all the cutting is done at the tip, nothing on the sides. Can we really expect that young climber to know all this stuff when Dad gave him that new Bulldog for Christmas? I generally keep these fears to myself, but this thread seems like a great place air my fears and give everyone a chance correct me if I got stuff wrong.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I may be wrong but I think the rawl power wedge changed about 5 years ago. anyways after haveing 5 for certain that i know of fail I don't trust them at all. when reserching a wedge bolt to replace them with i noticed that red head has some wedge bolts rated for concrete only and some rated for concrete and stone. the one rated for both stone and concrete has a shallow angle on the cone as does the hilti kwick bolt 3 and the fixe. the red head only rated for concrete has the same sharp angle cone as the power wedge.
I used to think I drilled better hole by hand but now that I have a bosch i am a believer in power drills. I do think the #1 contributer to crappy placements is drilling on lead under stress. I do however still lead bolt a fair bit. If i screw it up too badly i go back after and fix it with a 10mm Fixe glue in.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Tradman,
Myself, I think some bolts should never be drilled by hand. Using a micrometer I have checked the difference (I don't spell too good) between the bolt and the the part that grabs and I was amazed at how perfect the hole has to be on some bolts for them to grab properly. The holes that those Hilti's at work make are tight, so tight I am not sure I would even try to drive a 5-piece into them. In fact, I have never placed a 5-piece at work. I use whatever comes in the work package and an inspector checks that, the hole, and everything else before we even place the bolt. If I remember right, we have even used 8000psi concrete in some cases. I don't think even God could hand drill a hole as tight as some power drills:-)
The Fixi one's with the rubber washer were the least forgiving and the 5-piece the most forgiving. This summer I hope to Mic. the inside of some of my hand drilled holes to see how I am doing. I spot check and the 5-piece always reach torque in less than 3 complete turns of the wrench. I feel it would hard to mess up a 5-piece hand drilling. I remember having to use a 3# single jack to drive a 3/8 button head into the slab at work back in the day. Yea, I'm kinda old. I remember Richie and I driving 3"x3/8" buttonheads in with Yose. hammers 11 years ago this month and it was kicking our ass. We laughed about it at breakfast the morning of his accident:-((((( Damn-it, that brings a tear..........
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I think when the bit gets worn out with the bosch it drills too tight a hole.
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