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WBraun
climber
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Sep 27, 2006 - 03:10pm PT
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Let's all come to terms, Mark & Richard are two fine gentlemen, who never really did anything wrong. This ethics bullshit will never end, let us do our best on our next climb please.
Be grateful for our abilities to be able to enjoy such a nice thing as being able to climb.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 27, 2006 - 03:11pm PT
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Well said, Werner.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Sep 27, 2006 - 03:13pm PT
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okay, well anyways i think we should just all head over to Steve's house of smoke for some ribs and a beer.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 27, 2006 - 03:14pm PT
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Euro, you said "i can't come up with a SINGLE reason why I or anybody else would want to do it." Clearly that's bunk, because many have tried. Regardless of why they quit, they found a reason to try, which you claimed no sane person could have.
"if it was a bitchin line those guys or somebody else would have climbed it." Read the WoS threads and see if you don't come to a different conclusion.
Edit
Werner's comment above passed mine in cyberspace. Euro, you can have the last word.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Sep 27, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
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yeah i did read all of that, and maybe i'm totally wrong, but i think if i started up that thing i'd end up quiting and my excuse would be: "this sucks"
i guess its cool that somebody did it. i just don't see why anybody else would want to.
edit: don't want or need the last word. just trying to find something to talk about on the ST.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 27, 2006 - 05:23pm PT
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Euro -- Hell yeah! I'll meet you at Steve's! I'll bring some extra beer... Just in case!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 27, 2006 - 05:29pm PT
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good. cuz i suspect that the flames are lower than this:
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 27, 2006 - 07:01pm PT
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Where is Stevie Ray when we REALLY need him?
When the house is a smokin'
don't bother tokin'
When the house is a smokin'
don't bother tokin'
When the house is a smokin'
don't bother c'mon in
Kick off yer shoes
'n start spreadin' the news
Whole lotta climbers
got a whole lotta blues
Pull down their ropes
Ya got nuthin' ta lose
Take a dump on 'em too
Just don't get none on yer shoes
When the house is a smokin'
don't bother tokin'
When the house is a smokin'
don't bother tokin'
When the house is a smokin'
don't bother c'mon in
Walkin on the street
you can hear the sounds
Of the Old Valley Guard
gonna take the crew down
Gonna get on their case
start spreadin' the news
Who they think they are
gonna come here and climb what they choose?
(just a pickin and a grinnin)lol
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Sep 27, 2006 - 07:22pm PT
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extra beer, ALWAYS a good idea.
ron you remind me, back down in dallas, about an hour south was a forest preserve full of mountain bike trails. back in the middle of knowwhere accesable via some technical singletrack was this amazingly cool red painted custom fabricated steel bridge dedicated to stevie ray. i wish i had a picture of it.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 28, 2006 - 12:44am PT
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Marshall Braun, don't you worry none. The streets'll be clear in a couple days. I've not quite exhausted all of my snake charming skills in hopes of getting some straight answers out of these two sidewinders. White men speak with forked tongue. Right now, fork stuck in picnic table.
Bwana-dick, as an academic, I'm rather amazed that a few simple questions on your goals and preparation pose such a big problem. Chill out, will ya, I'm not asking you about the hole count.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I was up there this afternoon schlepping loads. My bollocks still shrivel in terror anytime I look up at the Wings of Steel slab. Mark and Richard are bad to the bone - do you know anyone who has taken a fifty-foot Factor 2 Fall and demo'd their rope like what happened at the start of pitch 2?
The route is unrepeated because it is FUKKIN' HARD! Scary-ass hard.
Brrrrrr..... I shiver just thinking about it.....
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Pete, Bwana and Skid ain't bad to the bone. They're just bad to the stone. Lose your love for the great gleaming slab of Jesus because the thing is mostly enhanced. I don't care how godly those boys are, nobody stands on 150 narrow Leepers without a whack of the old Inspector Gadget shaping pick followed by a tiny but exciting Bwana dimple to force upward progress. Those fellas will admit to 8-10 bonafide dimples.
You and Holly are going to do Horse Chute. When you get to the belay under the overlap, swing over and take a look at the WOS, aka POS, connecting pitch. As I recall, there were drill marks on about 3/4 of the hook placements in view on that pitch.
Cheers,
Steve
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Hey Steve,
Thanks for your answers on Horse Chute and other stuff in the area. I can't speak for the rest of WOS, but the first pitch was pretty stout. I was looking carefully and didn't see any enhancements - the hooking is desperate and you are guaranteed to take long falls. We replaced the old bolts with new, and the old rivets with new rivets of the same kind. It awaits a repeat. I guess there are 140-142 bonafide hook moves - most of them RFH - but I doubt I'll be the guy to find out.
As for Mark and Richard, you should come and hang out sometimes. They are actually really nice guys. Tom and I had a lot of fun with them when they were here.
My understanding is that Mark and Richard did finish WoS on Aquarian, but they went back later, climbed Aquarian to the Overseer roof, then did 2 1/2 pitches of the cracks of WoS, and then headed out right to catch Truck Stop ledge. Where exactly does their variation come in to Horse Chute/Play?
Also, Steve, if my hazy memory serves me correctly, I think Mark and Richard arrived at the Truck Stop with the intention of climbing the Horse Play line about two weeks AFTER you and Sue beat them to it. How could you have seen enhanced hook moves if you were there first?
And HEY YOU GUYS - I am not trying to turn this into a pissing match. I'm just trying to figure out who went where and when. Call it a history lesson for me. So be nice, will yas? Sheesh.
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couchmaster
climber
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Am I really seeing this? Ammon stomps in the hornets nest then take off leaving you all to swat the damn pesky things while he heads off to climb and enjoy life:-)
Too funny.
I agree with him that being prepared is a good thing, see Jimmy rays post, but frankly, I think Ron is way ahead of the curve on the constructive scarring thing.
Assuming that a route doesn't go on clean pro: on those hammered pin placements which are getting beat out badly, I don't understand why is it so bad to place a bolt, but having every party slowly trash and scar the line is OK?
PS
(Mimi- there were already at least 2 Wings of Steel threads that Mark and Ricard posted extensively too and were huge if you want to work on your thread revival skillz over that way)
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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OK... It's been SO long since this thread, and the WoS threads were put to rest and things seemed to have calmed down, etc. Thanks, Pete. :eye roll: hehehe
So, to refresh my memory, I started reading the beginning of this thread and the only real questions I came away with was "is andanother just being a f*#ktard or did someone actually accuse Ammon of chipping something?!" I don't recall SG accusing Ammon of chipping in the thread that lead to this one. I remember something about him placing a single pin on a climb. I believe it was even hand-placed....
andanother said -- " Ammon
It sounds like you would be better suited to gym climbing.
Stop chipping holds and learn how to climb you f*#king pussy.
It's 2006."
Along with a bunch of other senseless references to Ammon chipping, in the beginning of the thread.
Seems like pretty typical Internet Balls of Steel Syndrome, which is really Shriveled Balls Syndrome, mis-labeled, on andanother's part. Just curious though.
It will be interesting to see where this all goes this time....
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Mimi
climber
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Nef, I can't believe you forgot the details. The original point made about Ammon's climbing was that he nailed on a route in Zion that had gone clean. All in the name of speed. It was not noted by anyone who witnessed the ascent that he handplaced the pin. And it wasn't about one lone pin. The overall discussion started with unaddressed questions about speedclimbing tactics; continuing to nail vs. clean aid. It had nothing to do with being 'prepared' or not. Give me a break. I'd originally asked Ammon about this as a new participant on the ST. He said it was 'efficient' climbing. I guess I pressed him a bit too much on the issue so he wrote me offline giving me sh#t for questioning it. Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers. Sheesh!
couch, there were more like six threads including Mussy's WoS Splinter-Rivets and Replacement. I did post to a later WOS thread. This thread touched on that route and it is relevant to altering the rock, so posts were directed toward it. If you missed it, you should check out WoS XXVI. I think that was the last one from a year ago. Great stuff. Are you suggesting that it be revived? heh heh
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sorry, Mimi. It's been a long time. I'll have to dig up the thread, I suppose. I remember there being talk from a few different folks, Ammon included, where it was one pin, on a blind placement, where the general consensus was that some topos didn't show it and a lot of people didn't realize it was there or couldn't find it, etc. Something along those lines anyhow. I could be wrong on this, so don't equate my thoughts with reality in the matter. I don't want to speak for Ammon. I am fairly certain it was a single pin though.
However, as to my original question... This would make the answer - andanother was just being a f*#ktard and trying to stir something up. Placing a pin on a route isn't chipping. Not even the same ball park, really. Calling someone a "chipper" for doing so might ruffle some feathers.
Anyhow, I'm not looking to get involved in these threads again, really. I just know Ammon fairly well and know that he isn't out chipping holds on routes and does his best to keep with good ethics on his climbs. I thought what andanother said was pretty shitty and highly doubt he'd say such to Ammon in person.
I mainly free climb now anyhow, so I don't take a hammer OR pins on my climbs these days. I may be dusting them off for some winter stuff this year though!
Cheers all!
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Mimi
climber
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Nef, Ammon knew the route went clean but cut a corner to shave time. As a matter of principle, someone at his level knows better, hence the controversy, so you can cool it with the excuses. I didn't see where anyone accused him of chiseling. There is an obvious difference, but bad style remains weak sauce.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Excuses, eh... Maybe it's you who should re-educate yourself with the thread then (try the first few posts of this thread), and possibly re-read and comprehend what I wrote. From there, we might be able to have an educated conversation about my comments. If you read carefully, I wasn't saying anything ( let alone negative) about Steve or yourself, so need to get feathers ruffled. I'm simply stating my opinion of someone I know, as well as what he said here, publicly, not in supposed emails. There's really nothing more you can expect.
But now that you mention it, I do remember someone telling Ammon he needed to "sack up", which is really quite laughable.
Anyway, bad thread to re-hash. Same old arguments. No point, so I'm out.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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All right, MIMI - can I please sic you on this one?
Maybe you didn't see my photos, but have you seen the [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=439672&msg=452738#msg452738"]recent retrobolting on Dihedral Wall?[/url]
While people seem willing to challenge each other about questionable events twenty years ago, here are photographic examples of blatant ethical transgressions which occur today. In the link above, you will see shiny new bolts placed next to perfect cracks. I am amazed and saddened that my post has been ignored!
I don't get it. WHY has nobody even noticed or commented? Is it because the bolts were placed by superstar Todd Skinner, who is now dead? Or is it because superstar Tommy Caldwell used the bolts to make the "hardest" free ascent of El Cap? There is a photo of Tommy on the back cover of the new McTopo big walls guide [I thnk it is] showing him on this very pitch, clipped to the bolts!
Me? I think it's a frickin' disgrace! If I had my bolt removal gear with me, which I didn't, I would have started taking them out. It was my plan to ask Todd to do so. The Hubers have freed all sorts of equally desperate aid lines, and haven't resorted to retrobolting tactics. Does this mean you shouldn't retrobolt 5.13 pitches, but it's OK if the pitch goes at 5.14? Do tell.
In fairness to Tommy, I spoke to him about it, and he said that while he did use the bolts, he didn't place any.
Right, Mimi, click and go get 'em! And please comment in the Dihedral Wall thread.
Thanks,
Pete
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