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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 03:29pm PT
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Steve... you are a FUNNY guy! Of course, you shouldn't believe any rumors you have heard about we mad bolters. I haven't heard of one yet that was true. Of course, what does the truth matter? It's your PERCEPTION that matters. Right?
Bit of a defensive tone there in your last post. Careful with that. I've heard it can get you in trouble.
Also, your selective memory is admirable. I'm determined to emulate it for the future. Makes life much easier. And easier to account for.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 03:42pm PT
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Healy,
that it is "for each of us to decide" is actually at the core of the problem as, while protecting the life of the mallethead may be used as the excuse, we ALL have to live (OR DIE) with the results OF that decision.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Sep 14, 2006 - 03:48pm PT
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This thread is destroying the images in my head of some of my great climbing heros! Make it stop!!!
In case it's not already clear, all this shitslinging is making *everyone* involved smell like, well....
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 03:57pm PT
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I sense a "magic bolt" theory coming on... Call Oliver! =)
Just trying to lighten the tone. Cheer up and carry on people!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:08pm PT
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Another conspiracy spawn of the military industrial complex.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:18pm PT
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John (Fowler),
I know you said the move to place the blind RP is not really tricky, but since Steve described it as "highly technical", that is:
"The clean move which eluded you on Pitch 7 is a highly technical blind reach with a No. 3 RP out to the side bypassing the roof placement where you chose to nail."
Could you possibly provide just a little more detail.
Below is an enlarged version of Chris Mac's topo of the clean crux roof. As I understand it, Ammon placed a knifeblade/bugoaboo straight up, in the middle of the roof. However, you bypassed this placement. Does this mean your previous placement was at "A" in the topo? And you placed the RP at "B" or "C"? So you had no pieces straight up under the roof?
If you were at A and placed the RP at B or C, does the move have a "reach" component to it? What is your height (assuming you led this pitch)? Similarly, what is Ammon's height and addiroid's height? Guys?
One implication that may already be clear is that since Ammon's knifeblade placement was not needed for the clean ascent, any scarring/degredation caused by Ammon's (and others like addiroid's) use of that placement does not make it harder for others to do a clean ascent of the route. (except to the extent that people see a pin scar and might assume they should be trying to place something in it).
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
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"(except to the extent that people see a pin scar and might assume they should be trying to place something in it). " -
And that would only matter if they had brought pitons and a hammer, in which case they probably were planning on nailing that scar to begin with. This circular logic is making me dizzy..............
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
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244 posts, I just dont have time to go and read em all. Can anyone tell me briefly what this thread is about?
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:34pm PT
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This Grossman dude wants to take Ammon and the Madbolters out back of the woodshed! That's what's happening, it's sick, SICK!
Oh the HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 04:40pm PT
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Ben Rumsen,
The challenge that a first ascensionist leaves for the next party also weighs into the impact discussion. It is hard to argue that clipping into drilled placements, be they dowels, rivets or bolts, is particularly challenging unless they are manky. In this sense, the Shield is a far better result than the Dawn Wall. The Porter-Burton-Sutton ethic did not favor copperheads because they tended to become fixed and hence less technically interesting for the next party. I am not sure those guys even carried them in the style that they climbed. As with all hammered protection in the slippery slope world of aid climbing, gear choices affect the outcome. On routes like the Trip and Dawn Wall blank features could not easily be dealt with and dowel ladders are the result. Bridwell and others climbing in a style that utilized all of the gear at their disposal would have approached these features differently and so you have routes like the PO and Sea of Dreams where onus was on not drilling and filling with metal. The sustainability of either approach is clearly a subject for lively debate.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:40pm PT
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yawn ...
.. criticising one placement on a series of ascents is poor form in my mind ..
.. specially dragging a persons character into question ..
whatever ..
.. clean big wall climbing is also a total sham until you do it wihout using any fixed placements .. otherwise its not really clean.. (someone had to hammer in that fixed head -- or rurp. -- or bolt .. ) ..
... i'm going up zodiac again next year -- and i'm bringing my hammer + pins ..
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:43pm PT
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... what is the sound of one brain cell clapping?
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:44pm PT
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the madbolters I can understand, but Ammon? What did he do, run a lap on their proud route in less than 24 hrs? Downgrade the rating? Sleep with their sister? Must of been something pretty bad to hit 244 posts!!! Sheesh... Thanks Yo
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:49pm PT
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Atch, you really should read all of it when you get time. Quite interesting stuff.
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:00pm PT
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Maybe I miswrote, it is definately a blind placement and it was someplace between B & C, or maybe at C. This is kind of funny disecting this with such precision. I did this way back. I am only 5'10", very average, not particularly strong. This focus on the single move is not the point of this dicussion IMO. As I stated earlier, it is about the thought process and decisions/actions that occur in the bigger feild of play.
John
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:01pm PT
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Sorry Ricardo, the NPS outlawed pins in the Valley this week. Once the fixed heads are blown, you have to find another way up.
The NPS asked the climbing community to comment on the pending rules, but apparently only asked old, vocal climbers for their opinion. Younger climbers carried signs and vowed to fight the new ruling. They were dispersed by the remaining summer LEOs.
In response to questions, Park Superintendent Sanspins said that the new rule allows bolts, since they can send especially trained climbers up walls and 'restore' the holes with epoxy and granite dust. But they said the decision of when to use bolts was clearly up to the climbing community. "If the climbers, aid and free, don't want to use bolts that's ok with us," said Super Sanspins. "There are lots of nice hiking trails in the Park," he continued.
You would think that enforcement would be problematic, but apparently they have invested in really good scopes. SAR has been renamed SAD. Sounds wicked serious.
Buzz
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:12pm PT
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We're trying to have a serious discussion about rock rape here, Breedlove. Not all of us have to make smartass jabs to feel like we're contributing.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:14pm PT
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I thought his "breaking news summary" was very informative. Some of the people on this forum should give it some thought.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:30pm PT
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Birds of a feather, Ryan
Don't you like my name for the Super? (I borrowed it from Dickens.)
One of the picketers had a sign that said "SS out of Yosemite."
Buzz
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:36pm PT
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I'm not sure that Bridwell or the Sea are what you'd want to use as poster children for this "ethical" cause... Seriously. It's pretty common knowledge that he wasn't "Mr. Protect the Rock for Future Generations". No disrespect meant to him, at all. Just pointing something out. You may want to try a different angle there.
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