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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 23, 2014 - 04:44am PT
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actually, i was brought up by military surgeons addicted to crack
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Aug 23, 2014 - 07:45am PT
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 23, 2014 - 07:55am PT
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why I hear....
uh... Nothing.
and it's so beautiful. I think I will sing.'
Edit: wondering why a search of the word 'secular humanist' in this thread yields nothing.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Aug 23, 2014 - 08:18am PT
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have a great day nature
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 23, 2014 - 09:01am PT
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Not true at all...
Really? Not at all?
You throw me under the bus (well, you tried to, lol; incomplete success) for (1) challenging the claim, "Islam is a religion of peace" and (2) drawing attention to the caliphate and (3) lumping all Muslims together (painting w the broad brush) though in the posts I drew clear distinctions between Islamic moderates, Islamic fundies and Islamic jihadis.
Hey but our ox ain't getting gored... hakuna matata.
.....
"I have long struggled to understand how smart, well-educated liberals can fail to perceive the unique dangers of Islam." -Sam Harris
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-and-the-misuses-of-ecstasy
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 23, 2014 - 09:58am PT
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That acts to deflect attention from our lack of evidence supporting the existence of gods. Any gods. After thousands of years of looking for a god and finding none, we have a good chance of safely conducting our lives under the assumption there is none. If no evidence has shown up in thousands of years, none will probably show up while any of us lives. If it does, we all will be free to deal with it rationally.
It so amazes me, and saddens me more than anything, how it is that people are so far disconnected for their own consciousness and from the consciousness of people all around and throughout time.
Do you really believe mature men/women would devote their lives and resources toward a God of no thing without ever reciprocating any thing? God and the bible are living and working in people's lives today. Atleast I KNOW He is in my life and the people I pray with.
Every single day is extremely precious it took an awful lot of work to get us to this point, IT'S NO ACCIDENT!
Don't waste life on worldly trash. Pick up people that are down and out, less fortunate, not as smart as you. This is where you will meet the savior.
The idea of Hell had to be ginned up to deal with the overwhelming lack of evidence. Hell is a device whose only purpose seems to be that of confusing.
EVERYTHING in nature is a push-pull, positive-negative. There couldn't be one without the other. No light without darkness, in this universe anyway. It only seems reasonable if there's a heaven there's got to be a hell.
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Aug 23, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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An Agnostic says he neither believes nor disbelieves, he is a fence straddler
An Atheist is off the fence, as certain in his belief that there is no such thing as gods as theists are certain that there is.
the OP of this thread claims to offer an alternative to mass spewing by inviting us to contact him so he can spew one on one
both approaches are spewing
I have yet to read anywhere on this forum where an atheist invites believers to join him
in looking at human existence without the need for gods or Buddhas
question: why is it that god believers feel so strongly compelled to evangelize and atheists do not?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Aug 23, 2014 - 10:35am PT
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Interesting opinion piece in the New York Times this morning by a Muslim gentleman on how salafis, the dogmatic and evangelical Sunni sect, make up the violent Muslim groups around the world. http://nyti.ms/1nkuTZ4
Most Sunni Muslims around the world, approximately 90 percent of the Muslim population, are not Salafis. Salafism is seen as too rigid, too literalist, too detached from mainstream Islam. While Shiite and other denominations account for 10 percent of the total, Salafi adherents and other fundamentalists represent 3 percent of the world’s Muslims.
Wayno, Thanks for the kind words. Really enjoyed meeting you and the conversations. Oakdale was amazing and Grossman puts on a good time. The "campfire" with Bridwell and other luminaries back at the hotel was an unexpected gift. Thanks for the insight on Bridwell's reaction to my story. I was teasing him with respect for him and his accomplishments, but I may not have put it across well. I will make sure he knows the respect I have for him and his accomplishments. He is the reason for the magic we experienced in Yosemite in the 70s; he was the mayor of C4, the hub of the Valley scene, the ringleader, the catalyst for the energy then. He deserves his due respect because of it. The most recent Rock and Ice has articles by and about him are worthy reads. Few have experienced or done what he has.
Norton, agnostics aren't fence sitters, typically. The usually have a very strong position that there are things that are unknowns and that often the various Truths that both theists and atheists claim to be true with a capital T are just opinions.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Aug 23, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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Norton, I think what gets missed is the implied moral responsibility that Christian faith, at its core, levies onto its followers. The essence of Christian faith is that without belief in Christ and God, a person's soul is lost. Whether or not you or anyone else holds to the same belief, it is this tenet that, in effect, requires believers to share what they hold to be true with those who believe differently. To do otherwise would be tantamount to refusing to save a drowning man while holding the life preserver in your hand.
To re-state this, the concept of sharing the faith is elemental to Christianity and not only the misguided pride of some/many (?) of its followers. The corniness of the "Good News Gospel" slogan has its basis in this.
You can disagree with the theology all you want of course. It might be ridiculous to your mind. The belief of illogical raving lunatics even. Your call. But understanding the above, might be useful to know WHY they just won't SHUT UP already…
I obviously have some connection here to Christian Faith. Lets just say I'm still working things out, but I prefer to have these conversations from some level of mutual understanding as to where we're all starting from.
cheers.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Aug 23, 2014 - 11:02am PT
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"By their fruits ye shall know them."
Talk less, do more. Jesus (at least supposedly according to the New Testament) washes his disciples feet and said he'd given them an example and they should go out and do the same.
Used to have a patient that would always proselytize in my office. One time in a treatment room he was all excited and couldn't wait to tell me about Bush making a stand against all those faggots by making a law against gay marriage. Asked how the Jesus that ministered to the lepers and prostitutes and told only those without sin to stone Mary would feel about that kind of hatred. That at least gave him pause.
Turns out he was having an affair the whole time he was proselytizing in my office. I would never claim sharing the "good word" is always like that or that he represents all Christians (more like he represents the possibility for all of us to be hypocrites like that), but I want to see what you do rather than what you say. Where the rubber meets the road is the proof of the usefulness of someone's beliefs, whether those beliefs are religious or philosophical.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 23, 2014 - 11:42am PT
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but I want to see what you do rather than what you say. Where the rubber meets the road is the proof of the usefulness of someone's beliefs, whether those beliefs are religious of philosophical.
Mark, with that sentence, you have summed up the whole thing.
When we look around at the actions of most religious people, they are often NOT practicing the love that they profess for humankind in general, and the poor in particular.
We see the richest folks, who proclaim their devoutness, actually taking actions to suppress the poor and middle class, and keep their foot firmly upon their necks. We see contributions....when they are deductible. We see laws designed to concentrate wealth. We see little of the actions sanctioned by the Jesus they profess to love.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Aug 23, 2014 - 11:43am PT
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For Locker....
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 23, 2014 - 11:49am PT
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
Not true at all. I just don't support painting with a broad brush, and extrapolating the actions of some, to all members of a group. I don't support that for Christians, either.
Riiiiight.
That explains:
Ken M
Aug 18, 2014 - 09:37am PT
Now the Christians hang gay youth from barbed wire, and beat them to death. They are FAR more civilized.
Thanks, fell into my Rhetorical Trap.
In my second quote, you fail to note that what I am replying to, was a statement that Christians are all wonderful, all civilized, and that I was supplying an example of an exception.
Giving you, once again, a chance to proclaim "well, those were not real Christians!!! That was terrible, that was murder, that was wrong"
instead, what we keep hearing about that murder.....is silence. (one did appropriately post, and good on 'em. But no other "Christian" has done do)
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Aug 23, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
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Honestly, I didn't know that I could delete it. And I wouldn't anyway because in a sick way, that might be worse than letting the thread continue. I can only imagine the hate I might get from "censoring" the thread.
K now you know. But you don't want to do what you said your value was - not perpetuating mass spew about Christianity - because of the hate that might come your way? We all have our values I guess, self interest is pretty high for all of us.
I'm intentionally staying out of this, as much as I want to jump in, believe me :) But in response to direct comments to me ..
I believe that Kalimon asked you directly if Christians were better than Muslims.
Thanks for your thread!
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Jawon
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2014 - 10:03pm PT
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StahlBro:
This has to be right up there for most ironic thread evah Despite the fact that I'm the OP, I couldn't agree more.
rbord, you're coming across like a high school bully trying to pick a fight for no reason. No fight to be had here. I think the vast majority of people got my point with the very first post so I'll just leave it at that. Gonna go climb now.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 24, 2014 - 12:20am PT
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It so amazes me, and saddens me more than anything, how it is that people are so far disconnected for their own consciousness and from the consciousness of people all around and throughout time.
Do you really believe mature men/women would devote their lives and resources toward a God of no thing without ever reciprocating any thing? God and the bible are living and working in people's lives today. Atleast I KNOW He is in my life and the people I pray with.
Every single day is extremely precious it took an awful lot of work to get us to this point, IT'S NO ACCIDENT!
Don't waste life on worldly trash. Pick up people that are down and out, less fortunate, not as smart as you. This is where you will meet the savior.
You're not the only one, so don't sweat it. We have been beaten down for years.
Some remain silent and go on with their lives, and that's fine, but others speak out and denounce THIS BULLSH#T!
I, and the army behind me are tired of this. There is a stewing army of people who want America back. The America where we didn't know what Spec Ops were doing, where we killed jihadis on sight. The America where kids could run around carelessly until dark in the neighborhood without any fears.
We're not there yet.
As for people you meet and your personal lives? Rock on!
Illegitimi non carborundum. Do NOT let the bastards get you down.
(keep a couple of rounds near yer weapon)
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 24, 2014 - 12:54am PT
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If God exists he/she/it doesn't like us much.
That's blaspewme.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Aug 24, 2014 - 08:54am PT
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rbord you're coming across like a high school bully trying to pick a fight for no reason.
Sorry if I sounded judgmental. Not my intent at all.
Jawon you're coming across like you lack strength of your own convictions, or maybe misunderstand them - more mass spew about Christianity, less mass spew about Christianity? Which is it? Are you sure that you're being honest about the value that you're serving?
My thanks to you are sincere - glad to see you taking a more active role in your thread with the rest of us.
All I'm saying is that whatever your worldview, continued seeking is wrestling is what we ALL need.
Is that really all you're saying? If I have a relationship in my soul with a spiritual advisor which I call Jesus, but I don't believe the story about how a human 2000 years ago was sent down by God, what are, as you claim your motivation is, the eternal implications? Will God still use one of his saves on me, or am I SOL?
Thanks again!
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