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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 14, 2014 - 10:51am PT
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I have two doctorates in biology...
Hence the ref to ironies, etc.. (going back several years now)
Amazing.
My two cents: Somehow through all that training you didn't imprint on the physics and chemistry and cellular biology that underlie all life processes, metabolism, etc.. Somehow in all that training you didn't incorporate as real H. sapiens place on the evolutionary tree of life nor get the point /fact that in terms of its history and functioning it wasn't given any special dispensation "above the (natural) law."
But hey, you're in good company still, you got the head of NIH (Francis Collins) in your corner as well. Go America!
What's more...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4Cc8t3Zd5E
Who was your man, Huckabee? :)
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:01am PT
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Karma. Now there's an idea I can get behind. No BS, no cartoonish super beings, no false promises - just action.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:12am PT
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CHURCH OF THE FYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER
There are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. Many people around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.
WHAT ELSE SHOULD I KNOW?
We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence.
SCIENTIFIC PROOF
He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 had decayed by electron emission to Nitorgen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of Course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.
MORE PROOF WITH A GRAPH!!
You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. The graph above shows the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN
We are sure you now realize how important it is that this alternate theory is spread. It is absolutely imperative that everyone realizes that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this enough, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as we have run out of space. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t.
CONCLUSION
Thank you for taking the time to read about our views and beliefs. We hope this was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to our children and to everyone. We can all look forward to the time when the three theories of creation are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 11:15am PT
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Hey Jammer I went and found that thread. Is this what you are talking about?
MICRONUT
Hawk don't "paint" it. Take a router or a dremmel and rout out a whole bunch of horizontal 1/8th or so inch deep lines all through the interior of the pieces. Make little "rivers" that are basically perpendicular to your "pull down" vector. Put like ten into each one, about an inch or three apart. These rugosities allow you to grab ever so slightly with the meat of the back of your hands when taped and allow for little horizontal "rails" for the fingie tips. A round drill bit gives more bite, a football shape gives less. This is easy and gives plenty of texture. Don't sand. Use will wear them down nicely. Maybe consider a dedicated set of hand jammies for quick workouts. You'll be ready for Snake Dike in no time.
JAMMER
^^^
Just curious, why not "paint" it? I considered what you are talking about, I was going to "raise the grain" but went with paint instead since the smoother cracks I have trained on tended to wear out tendons/bones/joints much faster than my muscles, which made me think training in that way regularly and hard would result in injury.
Edited to add: this is on a crack that you would climb as opposed to a hang-board, so maybe a hang-board is different. Also, I believe the flex in the other cracks I have trained on greatly contributed to this feeling of looming injury.
Additional edit: If your cracks have ANY flex, try adding a piece of 3/4 plywood as a backing ;)
MICRONUT
Jammer, rough paint isn't bad, it just kinda wears smooth over time or ends up being too gritty and rough, depending on the mix. Maybe a combo of a fine grit paint on a routered crack like I mentioned would be a good combo.
JAMMER
Trust me, flat exterior acrylic latex with hobby sand addresses any issues you have had with other peoples texture in their cracks...
MICRONUT
Nice
JAMMER
Lulz indeed. Seriously, hobby sand is quite awesome, and extremely distinct from, say, playground sand, stairway grit, or "texture paint". It is also different than, say, 600 grit aluminum oxide grit, which doesn't work as anything but a thickener. With flat acrylic exterior latex it feels more like what you want than, say, Nicrotec wall paint. Anyway, so glad to share some hard earned advice with numbnuts like yourself :).
edited to add: It's also a LOT more skin friendly than grip tape, and loads cheaper and easier than coating the inside of the machine with sand-paper, rock, cement, or almost anything else, and it feels just like freshly broken fine-grained sandstone.
Whoa man, maybe I missed something in that conversation a while back. Seemed like a good talk to me. I gotta run yall. See you around. Work time, then heading to the hills to get on some granite with my kids.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:20am PT
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Why is it that so many threads on ST in the last few days remind me of comedy routines? The "climate change" thread reminds me of "Abuse" from Monty Python's "Argument Clinic." Earlier, some posts on this thread reminded me of Bill Cosby's story about his shop teacher. Now, I hear Inego Montoya in "The Princess Bride." We're getting a lot of arguments because many think words don't mean what others think they mean.
For the sake of deciphering what I write, when I refer to a "Christian," I mean someone who has repented of their sins, and turned to believe in Christ as his or her savior. That's it. This is usually followed by baptism, but not necessarily. When I speak of "orthodox" Christian belief, I refer generally to Protestant doctrine supported by Scripture unless otherwise noted.
Incidentally, I'm reminded of a story told about Gandhi. When he was studying in London, he wanted to attend a Christian worship service on Sunday morning to see how they worshipped. The church wouldn't let him in. When asked what he learned about Christianity, he said "I would have become a believer if it weren't for the Christians." Ouch!
Like Micronut, though, I find the generalizations given on this thread both sad and amusing. I repeatedly see Christianity (or "fundamentalist Christianity [almost always undefined]) accused of being racist, misogynist, anti-education, anti-science, ignorant, hateful, etc. We must be talking about different "Christianity," since Christian doctrine is the most liberating of racial and sexual roles (See, e.g., Gal. 3:28 [There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."]), which was and, sad to say, remains, a revolutionary doctrine. Jesus commanded that we love our enemies (Matt. 5:44), and foregive those who trespass against us (Matt. 6:14-15).
Anti-education? Who do you think founded Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and many, many other world class universities? Anti-science gives me particular fits, because it contradicts my own family's experience. I have three living male first cousins, 2 with Ph.D's in physics, the other with a Ph.D. in molecular biology, as well as a first cousin once removed who is an M.D., and second cousin who is an M.D., all of whom had or have successful careers in their fields of study, and all of whom are Christians under my definition above.
And all of this is totally ignoring Micronut himself. Any who've met him or read any of his posts can judge his intelligence and competance, and his kindness and respect for others. Those qualities jump out at you. Unless I completely misread his OP, and subsequent posts, he's offering to help those seek that specific help, and help far more profound than merely curing an earthly disease.
He's not saying all depression can be cured by conversion to Christianity. I know mine needs medication daily, and will need it for the rest of my life most likely, because mine does not stem from outsdie circumstances, or a bad view of myself. Our self-loathing is almost always a product, not a cause, of depression.
Jesus said that the world hated Him, and those who follow Him can expect the same hatred. (See, e.g. John 15:19 ff.) The ridicule Micronut's thread generated validates the fidelity of His following Christ. Thank you, Scott.
John
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:26am PT
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If a christian finds that their "faith" is what gives them solace and direction in life, then what's the problem?
If memory serves you were an English, history or literature major, something like that. I mention this because if your lifelong passion were instead nature investigation via science or science education or systems analysis or problem solving at large, or best of all worlds, all the above, you'd probably have a different sense and feel of it.
We protect what we love.
From another perspective, add up enough traditional fundamentalist Christians and soon enough you'll have a traditional fundamentalist nation. No thanks.
Be the change you seek in the world.
Edit for below:
Well, only you yourself know how passionate you are about seeking truth, seeking authentic understanding for how the world works according to the great tool of science, and what's more about furthering the project of civilization for one and all incl those yet to be born.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:32am PT
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John,
I was just trying to poke some fun into this as it seems like a much warmer (aproaching heated) conversation than it should be.
Religion is a very slipery slope to discuss somewhere open like this as there are so many different and often opposite opinions. Sprinkle in a little fundamentalism from a few sides and you've got an explosive situation.
You've got to give me the point that the FSM is funny though - right?
kev
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:35am PT
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Eric,
I find your posts quite perceptive. You are correct: orthodox Christian doctrine says that belief in Jesus Christ as my savior and lord is the only way to my salvation, and that this holds true for all humanity. I fully acknowledge the offense that doctrine engenders, particularly when I am no more qualified than any other mere human to tell anyone else -- much less someone I've found to be intelligent and admirable like you -- what you need to do.
Fortunately, orthodox Christian doctrine (that hobgoblin of this thread) says that's not my job. My job is to tell the story, not to convert you, because I can't convert you, or anyone else. God the Holy Spirit does the converting. Too many of us -- particularly people who, like me, are professional advocates -- want to try to do God's job. Worse yet, instead of telling the good news of salvation, we become latter-day Pharisees, telling everyone how they've sinned, something Jesus explicitly told us not to do. (Matt. 7:1-4).
I find it particularly discouraging that Jesus condemned hypocrisy almost more than anything else, and yet we Christians still engage in hypocrisy. Biblical doctrine tells me to help the poor, visit the isolated, look after the despised, etc. Jesus never told me -- or anyone else -- to make someone else do good. In other words, He told me to look after my own actions, not tell a nonbeliever what to do.
John
Edited to correct some rather embarassing typos (e.g., I referred to Eric's "pot.")
Second edit: Kev, That's the way I took your posts, which I enjoyed greatly.
Third Edit: I must confess, Kev, that when I read "FSM," in your post, my brain immediately interpreted that as the Free Speech Movement (I was a student at Berkeley from 1969-73), which was also quite funny at times.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:37am PT
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khanom,
If so then we'd never ever have a chance of any new theories being developed or old ones being disproven.
Nothing wrong with new theories as long as if they are in a public cirriculium then they are backed up and supportable by the scientific method - NOT FRINGE SCIENCE.
To Repeat: If it's not supportable by the scientific method devoid of fringe science then it shouldn't be taught in a non-parochial settting.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:49am PT
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it developed into a Western tradition of not lusting for war and not reveling in your enemies' defeat and misery
No, your "Western tradition" would be due more to Enlightenment and Renaissance. Not to mention general cultural evolution promoted of course by good thinking and dare I say good believing.
Maybe some of you far left libs are reading too much Chris Hedges, Karen Armstrong? Note your "love your enemy" commandment in practice only extended to tribe and family, not much further.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:54am PT
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Point well taken, John. I certainly respect and your forthrightness, even keeled presentation, apparent intellect, and admirable generosity towards a stranger, apparent even though we've never met. You may see yourself as flawed, as we all should, but others would do well to be so afflicted.
I refer only to Christians with an active (and that means just voting) anti-gay, anti-women, anti-science agenda.
It can't be denied, however, that the philosophical origins - the thought patterns, behind such viewpoints can be found in a belief system that separates the saved from the unsaved, and relies on the concept of eternal punishment to threaten those who choose not to comply.
Not exactly fertile ground for 'respect'.
I don't respect this viewpoint, just as I don't respect bigotry, extreme nationalism, and other inherently divisive points of view. I also don't respect the idea that the world is 6000 years old, just as I wouldn't respect the idea that the earth is the center of the solar system.
Conversely, I do not expect a Born Again Christian to respect my atheism, and good thing, because, for the most part, the one's I've met do not.
That is not to say I can't respect a person who holds such beliefs. I have Christian friends, they are aware of my thoughts, I'm aware of there's, and that does not preclude a respectful, positive relationship between us. Sense of humor required, of course.
I know that sounds like a dichotomous paradox, and perhaps it is, but let's file it in the Heisenberg file.
The people dearest to us all do things that we don't really respect - that worn out old joke, 'irregardless' - that's life in the big city. What I take issue with is when innocent people - by the millions we're talking about - get hurt. I take issue when the basic founding principles of our society - fairness under the law, separation of church and state (Christian nation? Excuse me?) comes under attack.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:57am PT
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Regarding the 'literal interpretation of the Bible', responsible for so much of the needless cruelty I've referred to - let's do a 10 second experiment:
How's that 'literal interpretation' of the 2nd Amendment coming along?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 14, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
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without a doubt
Yes, without a doubt. Had I lived in the 16th century I'm pretty sure I would've been one too. Just think of it: No science education. No physics. No chemistry. What's a cell? What's DNA? What's a ribosome? What's the spleen do? How about the pituitary and hypothalamus? Absent any competing models for how life works, how could the majority esp taking into acct peer pressure be anything but a Christian in a Christian community? or a Muslim in a Muslim community? But thank goodness times changed and this is a new era.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
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Jammer,
last post for a bit here......incidentally I tried your set-up about the texture and I dig it. Sorry the "conversation" didn't seem cool to you. I had no idea. I'll chalk it up to lost in forum style translation. My apologies. Over and out for now.
Scott
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 14, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
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Regarding the 'literal interpretation of the Bible', responsible for so much of the needless cruelty I've referred to - let's do a 10 second experiment:
How's that 'literal interpretation' of the 2nd Amendment coming along?
Now we're really talking thread drift. Orthodox doctrine views Scripture as "inerrant," which differs from "literally true." Parts of Scripture (e.g. much of Revelation) is explicitly allegorical, and other parts of Scripture make no sense unless the words spoken are meant sarcastically, allegorically, or otherwise non-literally.
The Consitutional analogy, though, is apt. We have canons of statutory interpretation that generally are congruent with canons of Scriptural interpretation. Most importantly, we interpret both statutes and Scripture in a way that resolves inconsistencies within the rest of the document. The theological statement I most hear is "we interpret Scripture with Scripture," meaning that if one proposed meaning of a passage contradicts other portions of Scripture, and an alternative reading does not, we take the alternative.
Similarly, if we interprest the Second Amendment "literally," what does its preamble mean, and can we interpret it to mean that individuals have no right to keep and bear arms? If we do, that means the "right of the people" must mean something different from an individual right in the Constitution generally, producing a contradiction with the rest of the Bill of Rights. (Otherwise, why does the Tenth Amendment [which some say is a dead letter now] refer to rights of the states or the people? The use of the term "or" implies the right of the people differs from that of the states.) Accordingly, the SCOTUS majority's interpretation of the Second Amendment is correct. As I said, thread drift (for which I claim full responsibility)
;>)
John
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 14, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
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WOW!
This thread went from one man offering a handshake and a prayer to, other men(notice the small M) wanting to boot Christians out of the USA, and ALL the religious of the planet.
In a similar fashion this is whats been happening to Christians for thousands of years, starting with Jesus.
You got that goin for ya micronut!!
Praise On!
Edit: i like that last phraise Praise On, Praise On, Praise On!
is there a song with that in it somewhere?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 14, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
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No sympathy? I told him I loved it. I just initially confused it with the Free Speech movement.
As for sarcasm, as a lightweight example (given because I can only think of it right now) the reply of the prophet Micaiah in 1 Kings 22:15 was pretty clearly sarcastic.
John
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 14, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
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Who decides who the "real" ones are?
(My understanding is that it's a pretty short list that does not include anyone on this thread.)
OH we are sure-idly ALL Christians!
We are all endowed by the One Creator, Jesus Christ.
One day soon we will ALL stand face to face, and mind to mind with His Glory.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 14, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
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i KNOW who is a TRUE CHRISTIAN!!!!!!
jus by praying with them once
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Aug 14, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
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I'm 41
Have two openly gay friends. And probablysix or so gay acquainences/neigbors and such. Just guessin' there. Why do you ask?
Have lived for a month in Kazakhstan where my son was born.
Three tours in Nepal.
Been to Russia a few times. Bangladesh, Hong Kong, Bangkok. Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands. Italy a few times.
My wife and kids lived in Europe for three months this summer for a semester abroad.
I have two doctorates in biology and am a surgeon for a living.
Just answering your questions there. Feels kinda weird giving you my resume but you asked.
My apologies, I guess I am completely wrong in my thinking. All this time I thought that the more we educate people the less likely people would be to follow religions that condemn people to hell (or worse living with judgmental religious types).
Like I said before, I was raised in a household with parents that believe exactly as you do (well my dad doesn't believe that it took 6-24 hour-days to create the earth, he's not that stupid) and I believed all of this stuff until I made friends with several gay people, then I learned the history of evolution theory. I just couldn't continue trying to justify what was being taught in church (gay marriage was a hot topic then), couldn't continue making weird excuses for what the bible says compared to what scientific studies have PROVEN and had traveled enough of the world to see that religious people and non-religious people have the same amount of troubles and joy.
I just didn't need the answers that were provided by the church anymore.
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