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Scott Patterson
Mountain climber
Craig
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Apr 24, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
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Whether the Nepalese government doesn't understand or they are just trying to cover themselves, is hard to discern, given their latest press release.
I'm guessing it is because the icefall doctors and climbing Sherpa are only a minority percentage of the people and businesses that rely on the income from Mount Everest. There are also the cooks, lodge owners (several lodges even have wifi and satellite dishes), food sellers, farmers, restaurants, goods shops, climbing shops (you would be surprised how many climbing shops are in Namche Bazaar), freight services, cobblers and clothing repair services, etc., etc., who also rely on income from climbers and trekkers. There's even an internet cafe as high as Gorak Shep, not far from basecamp. There's a (fake I assume, but they did a good job of it because it looks real) Starbucks in Lukla. There are bars along the approach. Lukla, Namche, and a few of the other towns along the way even have karaoke bars. There are even sizable banks (and ATMs) in Lukla and Namche Bazaar which rely on trekkers and climbers. The approach to Everest is beautiful, but it isn't wilderness, despite the lack of roads. All the businesses along the approach to Everest rely on trekkers and climbers.
Here's a photo I took of some people hanging out the world's highest internet cafe (17,000 feet), only a short walk from basecamp. We were there in the off season (winter-no climbers were there-only trekkers), but it must be really happening in the busy season:
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Apr 25, 2014 - 08:57am PT
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Sherpas are not fixing the route, 8 expeditions already left for home. Few (if any) will be able to do the climb without Sherpa support. According to Time Magazine, the foreign climbers will have to forfeit their $75,000 fees to the guiding companies. Families of the dead Sherpas will receive about $415 each in compensation by the Nepali government. The Sherpas should get organized and demand life insurance coverage for the next season. It would be a drop in the bucket for the foreign tourists.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Apr 25, 2014 - 09:44am PT
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One of the worlds most dangerous jobs
Helping rich people play mountain climber
Maybe everyone should just go home.
And show some respect!
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 25, 2014 - 11:58am PT
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Money does carry responsibility. What seems like a subtle kindness on the rich end can have significant destructive consequences on the poor end.
We hired a Nepalese company to provide porters, cook staff, supplies, and a sirdar for a trek through the Khumbu to do the standards there. This was a long time ago. Cost per porter was 2 bucks a day or so (from memory - but the figure was very low by our standards). We were tempted to 'help out' by paying them 2.50. After all, to us, that was nothing.
The problem is that local farmers also hire those very same porters to carry their goods to market. They would also be expected to pay the new going rate - an instant 25% inflation rate, or not get their goods to market during trekking season at all if labor was short because folks like us were hiring them instead.
Then there was the begging. We encountered none - until we got to Lukla, which has an airport. There, we were assaulted by an army of begging kids, who wanted pens, chocolate, money - thanks to well meaning tourists.
Finally, and more seriously, there was the cultural difference. One of our porters developed a clear case of pulmonary edema. We told our sirdar that this porter needed to descent. The sirdar refused - the porter didn't think it was an issue and didn't want to lose his job. After some discussion, we jumped the chain of command and ordered the sirdar to comply. He did, very begrudgingly. The porter was furious, but he descended.
The following evening, around dusk, the porter came trotting back to camp. "I feel fine!" His condition improved, fortunately, but he absolutely hated us for the rest of the trip, and that's never a good thing.
I can be tough to weigh the impact of one's actions in a place with such a wealth disparity. What is insignificant to us isn't to them.
This isn't to say we lead 'better' lives than the Sherpa, of course. That's an entirely different question. In general, the Sherpa seem to enjoy life every bit as much as we do, but that conjecture is based on a few short weeks there.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
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Reminds me of Major League Baseball before the Curt Flood ruling. The players, who ARE the game, were paid woefully inadequate salaries. Now, they are allowed to negotiate and they make great money but, guess what, the game is still thriving.
Sherpas are to the Everest Via Feratta what the players are to baseball....they ARE the game.
Without sherpas there is no via feratta and without that the average client, with a woefully inadequate skill set, has no chance of attaining the bragging rights for standing on top of the world.
Charge the clients $100,000, I'll bet the numbers won't diminish much and give that extra $25,000 to the people who make it happen...the sherpas.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
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Jim, that's what I said way back - let the market decide. But the market
will only decide in the Sherpas' favor IF they organize and stand united.
A nice added touch would be the highly unlikely denouement of some accounting
for the fees paid to the gubmint.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
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Yep, it took Curt Flood to get baseball into the free market maybe this event will be the catalyst for the sherpas.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
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Why not recreate the same fantastic wealth disparity we enjoy in our own country in the Khumbu? That wouldn't be applying an American template to the problem at all, would it? Complete with baseball analogy, no less.
High altitude Sherpas are a small percentage of the overall Sherpa community. Charge clients more? Fine, if the market will bear it. Hand all that money to the high altitude Sherpas, making them wealthy rock stars among an otherwise very poor society?
Hmmmm.
I can't see anything that could go wrong there.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
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You have a point but people should be justly compensated for their work and the sherpas clearly are not. Keeping them in bondage because of potential wealth inequalities in Nepal is not the answer.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 25, 2014 - 12:57pm PT
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Nepal could grow this market if it bought an Aircrane. When it was not flying customers directly to the summit for $10,000 it could use the machine for cleaning bodies and air tanks off the mountain.
The mountain could be spic and span again.
With all of these people, there could be coffee shops every couple of miles on the popular treks even. Cool.
That spirit is no different from what we have now, really. The Ahwahnee needs to build a hotel at base camp. Put all the tents another 10,000 feet lower. Out of sight somewhere. Over on the sunny side maybe.
Jus dreaming. Be a great hike.
Edit:
I have found a source saying an Aircrane( power plant unspecified but probably the more recent and more powerful P&W) has carried a 2000 kg load to just under 29,000 feet. That's about two tons; a lot of trash. Nepal's climbing market is something like $25,000,000 a year just for Everest! And South Korea owns an Aircrane. South Korea might well be able to detail its aircraft to Nepal for the three month climbing season. If it did that Sherpa fixing the route could be airlifted over the Khumbu. At least that much could be cut out.
Really rich clients might even pay to go all the way to the summit. That trade by itself might pay for the chopper. And put every Nepalian through Harvard to boot.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
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And let's stop this "member" euphemisim, they are clients. The only thing they bring to the game is their fee.
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John M
climber
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
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My understanding was that it wasn't the pay so much as it was the benefits. Health and life insurance, plus what happens to them if they decide the conditions are too dangerous. Do they still get paid? The climbing companies still get paid, so they were saying that they should also get paid. At least that is the way I read it.
http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2014/04/21/everest-2014-tragedy-overwhelms-everest/
Sherpa Demands
The demands from the Sherpas are wide ranging and include:
Increment of immediate relief announced for avalanche victims
Provide Rs 10 million (US$103,590) each to families of deceased
Set up a memorial park in the name of the deceased in Kathmandu
Cover all expenses for treatment of the injured
Provide Rs 10 million (US$103,590) to critically hurt who cannot rejoin mountaineering activities
Set up mountaineering relief fund with 30 per cent of royalty collected from issuing permits to different mountains (est $1M for 2014)
Double the insurance amount to the mountaineering workers
Provide additional chopper rescue to mountaineering support staff if insurance fails to cover the cost
Provide perks and salaries, except summit bonus, through concerned agencies to Sherpas if they want to call off climbing this season
Manage chopper to bring logistics and equipment from different camps if mountaineers decide to abandon climbing this season
Dont take action against SPCC icefall doctors if they refuse to fix ropes and ladders on the route this season
Let the expedition members to call off this seasons climbing if they wish so
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
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I agree the people should be compensated fairly - all over the world. High altitude Sherpas already make quite a bit more coin than their fellow countrymen, however, by comparison. Are they not being compensated fairly now? I'm not so sure about that.
Should the goal be to improve safety and provide a safety net for future victims of accident (a narrow but immediate one), or reduce the Sherpa/Foreign Guide income gap? After all, these Sherpas don't pay Foreign cost of living expenses. The assumption that this income gap isn't appropriate is just that - an assumption. Or is the goal a broader one - improve the overall conditions in the region - health, education, safety nets, etc, improve safety on the mountain, or something else?
If the latter, is this a trickle down idea? If that hasn't worked here - and it certainly hasn't (quite the opposite) why would it work there?
The baseball player analogy was a terrible one as far as any semblance of social justice is concerned. Those players were already fantastically well compensated beforehand. Well, now they're the highest paid athletes on average in the world. I know I feel better.
If concern isn't just for a few already well paid high altitude Sherpas and more for the Sherpa community at large, I'm just suggesting stepping back a bit and looking at the region as a whole when speculating what might be the the best course of action.
Certainly, there's an immediate need to improve safety to prevent or mitigate such tragedies. I'm not sure throwing a bunch of money at a few Sherpas - which you've got to admit, is as America Simple as it gets, is just, wise, or productive, however.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
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The fact that the sherpas have fewer expenses than first worlders has nothing to do with getting fair compensation for services rendered. I do agree that the whole sherpa community should benefit. It is not just the high altitude sherpas who are not receiving just compensation.
Also, arguing that fair compensation creates a wealth gap seems like a ploy to keep the natives in their place.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
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Actually, local cost of living is extremely salient. If you want to artificially create the kind of inflation that will screw non-high altitude Sherpas in short order, throw a bunch of money at them without considering the effect on the region's overall economy.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
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Yes.....we know what is best for them, don't throw too much money at them, no matter how much they deserve it, damn.....you'll corrupt them!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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It's the high altitude Sherpas who get maimed and killed so why shouldn't they make more than the cooks and camp helpers and low altitude porters with safer jobs? Also note that the high altitude Sherpas did ask for better insurance benefits for the lower altitude workers as well as themselves.
Trickle down economics doesn't work in our individualistic society but it is much more successful in a society with large extended families. One high altitude Sherpa supports many people and many indigenous charity projects.They all suffer when that Sherpa is killed.Because the insurance is so low, the children are often pulled out of school to work as camp helpers and porters, hoping that in 10-15 years they too can work at altitude to try to regain family fortune for their aging widowed mothers.
It's true that the farmer can not compete for wages with the Sherpas who work for foreigners and inflation is a problem for the locals in Khumbu.The solution which has been reached, is to hire non Sherpas from lower down to do the unskilled field work and portering. Villages of other ethnic groups who are a hundred miles away are also prospering thanks to tourism.
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John M
climber
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
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Does anyone know if the list I posted is accurate? I don't understand why y'all are arguing about higher pay, when the sherpas don't appear to be asking for higher pay. Instead they are asking for better benefits and better protections. At least according to the list I posted. How would that harm the local economy if a Sherpa gets decent health or life insurance?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
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Of course they should make more than cooks and those less skilled, experienced, and exposed. I believe they are already paid considerably better than those folks now, however, but I'm certainly no expert. They sure were when we were there, but that was a while ago.
I'm just suggesting that the goals of any proposed action be considered in its larger context - including the unintended consequences of such action, like local inflation that might hurt, rather than help, local farmers - the bulk of that population.
I'm also quite dubious about 'trickle down' in any societal context, considering how much of a failure that idea has been here. Sure, some of the money will filter into the community. But money can go elsewhere, to - rum, imported gear, and other places that don't help the community that much. I'm also not so sure our society is all that different on the meta level - we have extended families here, too.
And John M, thanks for bringing that up. Let's turn the volume down a bit on the 'AMERICAN SOLUTION' and listen to what these folks actually want.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
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You'll harm the local economy by putting more money into it. Sounds like the kind of argument European and American colonialists used for centuries.....these are simple, uneducated people, we know what's best for them. Real meaning....keep them poor and dependent why we reap the benefits.
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