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julton
climber
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Mar 13, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
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BASE, you frame the issue very clearly. But what do you see as a path? Or are you a pessimist?
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julton
climber
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Mar 14, 2014 - 12:06am PT
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the externalities
What does that mean? Carbon taxes?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 14, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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The insults come from people who are abusive. Some claim they are abusive only on the innernutz - a forum they believe is somehow OK for that. Joking between buddies! - only it's not. Rest assured, many of these folks are abusive to the people in their lives as well. I've noticed that some of these folks target women in particular. They're nearly always men. Telling.
You either go there or you don't.
And there's no excuse for going there.
Abusive behavior is, more often than not, coupled with ignorance. Those who know anything about a topic tend to stick with discussing that topic - because they can.
Ignorant, opinionated, and abusive is a combination that has become, unfortunately, popularized and encouraged in some circles. The people who engage in it - no mystery to anyone here - immediately self identify whenever a new poster - myself, for example, shows up.
The behavior isn't terribly different than your average barfly. Same aggressive demand for attention that quickly turns abusive when the newcomer opts for higher quality company.
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julton
climber
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Mar 14, 2014 - 01:11pm PT
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A 500 page "primer"?
I understand that we don't pay all costs up front. And of course people change habits in response to a change in cost. What I was trying to ask you was how you'd include those omitted costs. If not by taxation then what method?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 14, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
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Prohibition (simply not doing it) is a viable way to prevent paying particularly high costs - or costs which may wind up being catastrophic. Smoking provides a personal example - smoking causes many fatal diseases - simply not smoking removes a primary cause of those diseases.
I would say the pipeline qualifies for such a preventative remedy.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Mar 14, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
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Base, I think some of your arguments may be outdated? Peak oil is no longer a worry, there is more than enough oil to ruin this planet. Furthermore, you just cannot say with any certainty that now for sure we have found it all...just 5 years ago we thought we had no LNG, now there is too much.
Once the barrel is high enough then more costly ways of extraction will become profitable.
Additionally I think the tragedy of the commons argument you use for not worrying about KXL because it only contributes a little bit to climate change is also weak. There are now many many little projects around puking and spilling just a little bit of co2 and oil...it all adds up...
What I was trying to ask you was how you'd include those omitted costs. If not by taxation then what method?
There is no other method, we need to charge a price to emit carbon, that is the best way to curb how much co2 we emit. Then carbon capture projects will become profitable and so will clean energy.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 14, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
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"If the price of a barrel of oil is the same for every country around the world, why then does a gallon of gas cost us $3.30 and cost the average European almost $10? Because many externalities are deliberately hidden from the average American. Don't kid yourself, however, you DO pay those costs.....just not at the pump."
Wow. Really? Now for the rest of the story...
1) WTI v. Brent price spread is (or was .. I don't follow it that close) $20 per barrel so Europe pays 20% more for the oil up front over the US..
2) Taxes. Europe likes 'em and has a lot of 'em so between the tanker, the refinery, and the gas pump - Europe taxes the crap out of themselves. Been to California lately? (Oh, wait...) Why is your gas 25-30% more than mine in Denver? Mostly taxes... and your dumbass different blends from the rest of us.
3) Shipping costs. My gas is refined in Wyoming mostly. Shipping cost is next-to-nothing to Denver.
Edit - its also probably produced in Colorado and Wyoming...
Edit#2:
"Don't you think your habits might change if gas at the pump were priced at it's true cost of more than $10 a gallon, even if your taxes were lower? "
Please add up the components in your "true cost" to come up with $10. In the US, the wholesale price of gas is about $2.40 a gallon. This is made up of the oil cost, refining margin, oil company profit, and some adders. Add shipping, taxes (fed, state, and local), and local distributor profit to get the retail price. The formula is similar in Europe to get to the $8-10/gal. price there. I'd love to see your math.
And Europe's habits are different - different car designs, etc. Their geography, city planning, and culture are also much different from us. And a typical Euro country is nothing like the American West. They are also dependent on the North Sea, Middle East, and Russia for their oil and gas...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 14, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
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Oil is off-loaded in Long Beach ( California )
It's refined in San Pedro.
But a fifteen minute drive from the refinery the gas came from, gas is going for about the highest price you'll find anywhere in the U.S.
Taxes and regulations make up most of the difference.
What are we getting in return for paying for those extra added taxes and regulations that the residents of neighboring states aren't?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 15, 2014 - 01:29am PT
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Just pointing out there are other forces at work here besides the law of supply and demand.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Mar 15, 2014 - 09:36am PT
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http://www.solarcity.com
Find it hard to believe ,someone from another country will get the ball rolling?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 15, 2014 - 11:22am PT
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"What are we getting in return for paying for those extra added taxes and regulations that the residents of neighboring states aren't?"
The answer to that is simple - you get to live in CA rather than somewhere else. Heavily populated states with lots of infrastructure tend to have higher taxes. They also tend to have more, higher paying jobs.
Whether that's a good or bad thing is solely up to you.
Citing Europe's high taxes makes little sense unless one also cites what Europe gets for those taxes, which varies by country. Common differences between 'them' and 'us' include universal (and less expensive) health care, continuing education, and infrastructure maintenance - three areas the US falls woefully short in by any objective measure. Now you may argue whether or not those things are worth it, but you can't honestly imply that Europe pays higher taxes and gets nothing in return for it.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 15, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
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^^^
Funny - that's why I left California...
Also funny - I find that the infrastructure in Colorado is just fine, and I pay half the tax rate. And the schools are better. And the general cost of living is lower. And the air is cleaner. And the people are less douchy (except for Boulder). And there are plenty of high paying jobs (especially in my industry, which Cali does everything they can to chase out of the state...)
I see a trend.
Have you been to Europe lately? I have - I would not cite continuing maintenance as a positive in Europe relative to the US. Aside from the toll highways, their infrastructure is as bad as ours in the places I have been a (which is generally off the beaten path).
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Mar 15, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
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^^^
Yes I have been to Europe lately, 5 weeks vacation, free daycare till age 6, amazing public transit, medical, list goes on an on
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 15, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
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You mean you don't have 5 weeks of vacation? I thought Canada was all sunshine and bunny rabbits. Well, bunny rabbits anyway. :)
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
san diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2014 - 10:06am PT
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Nice one Tvash
"Prohibition (simply not doing it) is a viable way to prevent paying particularly high costs - or costs which may wind up being catastrophic. Smoking provides a personal example - smoking causes many fatal diseases - simply not smoking removes a primary cause of those diseases.
I would say the pipeline qualifies for such a preventative remedy. "
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Mar 16, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
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I've come to understand that the sands people don't all agree that the pipeline is good for business. The oil would be locked into prices paid in the Midwest where as if the oil continues to ship by train it can be sold in the east where it fetches more money.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Mar 17, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
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haha, not interested in bragging, (not that I could anyways) or trying to compete with someone with decades of experience, but offering up some fresh perspectives is always a good thing for a debate about policy.
Msc in atmospheric science. My current work is in wind energy. My work helps traders integrate wind energy into the grid for use or for sale. I have some experience in Canadian sustainable energy policy an governance.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Mar 17, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
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Not good enough, Hoser. You need to have climbed 5.14 bitd in the Valley or JT in order for your opinion to matter around here.
However, if your ballcupping technique is especially good, there are certainly plenty of greybeard usetabes here that will get your back.
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