Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
I love the stories and pictures of stolen ascents as much as anyone but to suggest that this is the way to get it done is reckless, irresponsible and misguided.
-
Seems a bit much. Also seems like an attempt to standardize how we should go about climbing according to some objective criteria - which doesn't exist. It also assumes that Indian lands and the people on them are all of a piece, when in fact there is as much diversity amongst Indians as there is in any other demographic. What's more, the idea that the Indians are being overrun by climbers is debatable.
All of these issues are very fluid. It's not a matter of heedless white folk exploiting the fluid situation to burgle illegal ascents of sacred, off-limits rocks, as it is people simply seeking out novelty and adventure. Some people will be offended on both sides of the fence, yelling fowl, and seeking to control and regulate "irresponsible adventuring."
All the arguments are in fact sane and right and mature and honorable. And they will be overlooked by young climbers so long as the spires stand. Likewise, there will be responsible folk out there trying to shame and control them in the name of sobritey and decency. That's just the human dynamic at play. Don't expect it to change much.
JL
|
|
all in jim
climber
|
|
"All the arguments are in fact sane and right and mature and honorable. And they will be overlooked by young climbers so long as the spires stand. Likewise, there will be responsible folk out there trying to shame and control them in the name of sobritey and decency. That's just the human dynamic at play. Don't expect it to change much."
Love it!
|
|
Q75
Trad climber
Shiprock, NM
|
|
...And this debate will go on and on and on. Screw this, let's climb!
I'm available still to those who choose to come down and take a chance. That's all I have to say about this subject anymore and that's what I told Mr. Haas from the very beginning and others as well. If we get into trouble, we'll all get into trouble together. I'm done giving anymore statements justifying my actions.
Thanks as well to Todd Gordon for sharing your pictures as well and for making a difference in some kid's life up in LA, where I too have family that live there as well.
Peace all and Happy Climbing.
"1st rule: No talking about fight club.
2nd rule: There will be no talking about fight club!"
I can agree with that quote.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
Again, I'm not trying to wax poetic about the glory of "irresponsibly" burgling routes, all I'm saying is that young folks out there doing sh#t will rarely listen to us old folk telling them what to do and how to do it just because we declare that our reasons are valid, just, responsible, logical, and so forth.
Young folk out there creating new worlds live by their own rules. Always have - and we have no say in the matter. This dynamic is neither right or wrong but simply the ways things have always been.
When passing judgement on, or trying to create meaningful policy about any of this - usually the province of the old guard - we need to take this as a starting point - that the young are the ones in motion and largely do as they please - or the whole thing devolves into a power struggle disguised as a "responsible" argument against chaos, freedom, and all the other labels we can stack on the issue.
JL
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
Long and I grew up during the same area, in the same neck of the woods, with the same crowd;.......the young climbers do as they please gig rings true.........It must go along with the awkward age for boys;..that would be age 13 to 65....(and in Donini's case.......stretchable to age 70)......All my yuppie/hipster friends are declaring "I never gonna grow up"....while the homies that I roll with are finally, approching age 60;....proclaiming...."It's time I grow up....please...someone help me with this seemingly impossible task".......
I think Quentin has it right;......Screw it, let's climb. And if we get into trouble, let's get into trouble together.......I'm with ya, Quentin.
|
|
fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
|
the young are the ones in motion and largely do as they please
yeah they do.
but along the way they got some guidance or inspiration or whatever from the climbers that came before them. i don't believe that every generation reinvents the wheel...we're standing on the shoulders of the pioneers in almost everything we do.
speaking for myself, i got stoked to do a lot of what I've done from hearing stories from guys like you, Largo.
younger generations do look to the badasses of other eras to define themselves. same goes for magazines like Rock and Ice. so we might think of this when we discuss delicate or controversial topics.
I think Quentin has it right;......Screw it, let's climb. And if we get into trouble, let's get into trouble together.......I'm with ya, Quentin.
so after however many pages we're just going with the Rock and Ice concept? heh. ironic.
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
Largo,
I enjoyed your last post in regards to young people doing as they please. I regularly work with at-risk teens (including a number of Dine). I realize that most of these youngsters are doomed to spending much more of their life in prison, but that does not stop me from trying to share some of my life experiences with them in hopes they can make more informed choices.
This is precisely why I have repeatedly emphasized in this thread that we need to show the locals (i.e. Navajo Nation) as much respect as we are capable. I realize that a lot of climbers will just say, "Fuk it, you can't tell me what to do." While I do not agree with this train of thought, it might be passable on Federal land (FS,NPS,etc) we should recognize the Navajo lands are a much different place.
I like your idea of climbing indiscreetly. Having the privilege of climbing with at least two phenomenally talented free / aid climbers, it is sadly laughable when I do glance at one of the mags and read about some blowhard announcing he is the raddest climber to ever be in the desert. If people only knew what a distorted version of the truth these magazines portray...
Lastly, to any Federal or Tribal law enforcement officer reading this thread, please consider that R&I magazine in no way represents the viewpoint or opinion of many persons who call themselves climbers.
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
Fluffy wrote:
younger generations do look to the badasses of other eras to define themselves. same goes for magazines like Rock and Ice. so we might think of this when we discuss delicate or controversial topics.
Couldn't agree more.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
"Fuk it, you can't tell me what to do."
I never took this attitude myself. It was just that other's opinions never entered the conversation. Why should they? That's how we thought back then.
I realized that people come and go but the environment remains, and that is what we always held as sacred. So long as the actual place itself as held dear and treated like a divine article, everything else was really just us folks squabbling about this and that.
I too used to work with juvenile delinquents (that's what they called them in the 1970s) when I was in college and the "climb by stealth" MO would never fly with that demographic. Those people needed rules and boundaries and so forth. We all do.
JL
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
I've been telling people that climbing on the Rez is cool for 35 years;.....no one listened to me then;..and know one listens to me now;....(I think it's teachers;....no one listens to them;..their students, their principals, the parents, their spouses, their friends.......but they keep on flapping while no one listens to them....)...
The rock is some of the worst in the world, the climbing is WAY scary and dangerous, you have to be masterful at piton work, and you best on your game with soft rock anchors.............mass invasion of climbers climbing on the REZ...I dont' think it's gonna happen...(but you never know.....).........I have trouble finding people who want to go trad climbing anymore;.....everyone wants to clip bolts and go!...(and why not...gets you back to your beer quicker...)..
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
Haha so true, Todd, sometimes I feel as if I am flapping my jaws into the wind, wasting time creating these elaborate responses on this thread. Sure feel that way when some 15 year old just out of prison is telling me to go F - myself.
And Largo, just to be very clear, I hold your contributions to the sport in very high regard.
It is the crappy rock which will indeed keep this place from being overrun. I chuckle when I read reports on here when people complain about a "grainy pitch" in Yosemite. Ha Ha, they have no clue how terrible some (edit: most) of this rock is.
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
Largo wrote:
I realized that people come and go but the environment remains, and that is what we always held as sacred. So long as the actual place itself as held dear and treated like a divine article, everything else was really just us folks squabbling about this and that.
I realize I have been flapping my jaw for days now. In case it isn't clear yet, we are dealing with a completely different culture, an entirely different way of life, at least with the traditional Navajo that I have been gifted to know. Sure, I believe these rocks to be sacred, too, just like you. But for these people the rocks are a part of their history, their being, their everyday life. These places are a part of their person, their family. They have a different view of nature, in which they are a participant, versus being an observer. It is a difficult concept for us white folks to even consider.
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
Todd how tall is that 8 pitch route that you mentioned a couple of times up thread? What are the tallest rocks down there? I want to trad climb.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!