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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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^^^Scuffy, I send a hug and a hope that I get to see you soon :) So glad Katherine is a good fit for you!
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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jesus, happi.
your criticism is a plane, inclined
and wrapped around a steely axis of thought.
why am i in the community vise?
scrutiny upon me, from every which way.
i adore the attention,
really i do.
but
a drunk does not fit in a brown bag,
like a tall beer does.
to each their own disease.
your relationship with reality is secure,
and mine is aloof.
plus, you've no kids.
how in the hell can you empathize with my situation?
you cannot.
as i cannot harmonize with your song.
i'll drink again, someday.
i will always flip over realities
and peer at their belly.
nevers. and always.
forevers and love.
i do not subscribe to absolutes.
i am trained to die.
it's just what i do best.
i'm not ashamed of my skill.
it has served me quite ill.
so i plan to celebrate, fully,
the gradual disorganization of my personal entity.
each cell is a privilege to kill.
i don't take their's murder, lightly.
by the way,
my wife is still at my side.
we are far from solid,
but i'd say we're teasing stable.
off belay!
norwegian
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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oh, and lambone,
while we're flinging about advice,
congratulations on your growing acceptance of
what was an originally undesirable situation.
but i offer you caution.
don't miss the opportunity to
recognize the faults within you that contributed to the
dissolution of your marriage.
tackle those beasts, tame them with some stun weapon,
and then arrive at the side of the next lucky gal
as a better man.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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but i offer you caution.
don't miss the opportunity to
recognize the faults within you that contributed to the
dissolution of your marriage.
tackle those beasts, tame them with some stun weapon,
and then arrive at the side of the next lucky gal
as a better man.
^ This is really great advice...some I wish I'd heard and heeded many years back. It would have saved me some additional bumps in the road.
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dirtbag
climber
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Indeed. In the process of splitting up last year I addressed some of my demons and have come out of the process a better man, and a better catch for the next lucky gal. Divorce brings a lot of pain but being free from the constraints of a bad relationship can also bring tremendous opportunities for growth, if you are willing to be unflinchingly honest with yourself. While my bed is emptier from the experience, my mind is clearer. I'll take the latter any day!
And btw, I spent a lot of time coming to terms with my parents' abuse of alcohol when I was a child. Yes, the consequences of being a child of an alcoholic can last a lifetime, even if you are the offspring of a "happy"drunk as my father appeared to be.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Norwegian, Lambone has been in weekly therapy in addition to group work to do just that. Are you in individual therapy working on your demons?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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uhh. individual therapy?
i'm not seeing anyone if
that's what you're asking.
i'm all my own idiot.
brazen as moses,
parting my demons
and burning some bush.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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I don't think one gets rid of demons. We just learn to deal with them, accept those flaws and make something useful out of them. As for splitting up? Each relationship I ever had was a success in teaching me a few lessons.
I left because in the long term it wasn't good but... Ending doesn't mean "bad" experience... It just mean the cycle is done. It is another step along this big road of life...
AFS
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dirtbag
climber
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Not to pile on, but I never, ever imagined myself going to therapy. "No way--I am not f*#ked up!" Lol!
But I went upon my ex's request over a year ago. And it was a very constructive experience, forcing me to confront issues I certainly did not want to address, especially my parents alcolohism, but which I had never fully addressed and were interfering with my happiness. In that respect my wife's request probably backfired, but that's another story. Anyway, it was tremendously helpful for me.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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There is a lot of variation in the quality of therapists. Results seem to be deeply dependent on how ready you (and the other party if there is one) are to deal with stuff, how much effort you are willing to put into it, and if you've got really unpleasant stuff to deal with, how courageous you are to face it.
My first leap in that direction was a self-prescribed anger management class to deal with my part of the crap in a destructive marriage. It helped me understand the fight/flight nature of my responses in specific situations, and how my efforts to "try harder" or use more will-power from an intellectual perspective often came to naught when a critical threshold was crossed. I went to an individual counselor who ultimately made me feel more angry and blaming toward my ex because my issues tapped into his own experience of issues and he went a bit overboard in validating my experiences/feelings. Maybe that's what I needed at the time. It was basically a place for me to start venting, but didn't help me take personal responsibility to fix stuff or increase my emotional maturity.
I tried marital counseling with my ex, but it was more or less a joke. We each are smart people and it was primarily an exercise in learning a new language and set of rules in which to camouflage our power struggle. We have since been in court-ordered co-parent counseling which I wanted, but that was easily subverted into a tool to obstruct the resolution of other issues inside the court room, and each venue can be used to delay the other to avoid reaching a resolution on issues in conflict.
The single most beneficial type of counseling for me, after I had an epiphany about not being able to resolve my problems in the intellectual domain (like the difference between reading about weight training vs. actual weight training to get strong), was a 8-day retreat to go full-on immersion in facing demons and childhood stuff. It made an astounding and lasting difference in how I understand things, and it diffused so many mental landmines waiting to be triggered in negative relationships. This process is what enabled me to survive a few extra years of marriage, but ultimately it is also what gave me the perspective and strength to walk away from an unhealthy situation and to seek something better for our kids.
I still have issues with not doing things I should do on an ongoing basis to keep myself emotionally in shape, and there are plenty of more life lessons for me to learn, but I'm glad I've overcome most of my fear of judgment associated with the therapeutic process.
It is still a stigma in our society, perhaps borne of fear of admitting that there is something wrong with us. This indicates the level of ignorance in our society about emotional health and literacy. We are not embarrassed to say we go to school to learn about math or english or science... why should we be embarrassed to admit that we aren't born knowing how to articulate our feelings, from whence they arise, and how to manage them in the context of our relationships with other people? Many if not most of us get crappy examples from our parents, and no other education short of what we learn by trial and error in failed relationships, the learning of which causes such deep hurts that we have to abandon the relationship and declare emotional bankruptcy and hope for the best with the next person.
The good thing is that there are tons of books out about this stuff now, tons of classes, and enough people who believe in emotional development that you can create a support system around yourself of like-minded individuals, or at least find some anonymous forum to supplement the lack of a real-life support system (sort of like this thread is doing).
Anyways, I'm just sharing this to try to erode the stigma of seeking an emotional education in whatever form is most helpful to you.
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John M
climber
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great post nutagain. lots of good points.
Norwegian, I think Happigirls post was spot on. So was Daphne's and Sullly's. That is of course my opinion.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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I hear your solid advice norweigan, and I have been doing the work. At first it was in the name of winning her back...as it's developed I know it's more for my own personal future.
I wasn't perfect for sure, had some low times in the recent past where I lost sight of the big picture. Fell back on old patterns inherited from my father and parents relationship, because it's always easier to deal with tough situations in the ways you know best, which aren't always the best ways. I know I've learned from those mistakes and will face a lifelong challenge of not falling back into those destructive patterns.
At the same time I know I didn't deserve all the blame, and won't except it, for as the old true cliche goes...it takes two to tango. In my opinion is there is no excuse for bailing on your spouse, when you have children...just because things aren't perfect, without a collaborative effort of working on it, especially when the deep love is still there.
And I don't climb with bailers...I'd rather soldier on up the Big Stone alone.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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why am i in the community vise?
Because you keep offering up your plans.
This suggests to many that you are interested in a second opinion.
plus, you've no kids.
how in the hell can you empathize with my situation?
you cannot.
If somebody has to match all the dimensions of your life,
in order to make a reasonable observation about one dimension of your life,
then nobody understands anything about you.
Really, you could dismiss everyone's experience with this type of requirement.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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kudos to the weegee if he has been absent on the net while present with his family
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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change is a gawdamn blessing.
recently the anchorage for the front step to my cabin failed,
and the step deflected slightly.
actually it sunk like 3 inches.
i did not hasten to repair it,
instead i considered the symbolism,
hoping for a crack in the universe thru which i could slither.
and i found this:
the broken step leads to a door,
which is a threshold that i cross many times a day.
the passing of this threshold had become a habit,
that i executed thru a thoughtless and conditioned routine.
now, after the uninvited adjustment,
i have to rethink my step;
make it 3" shorter on the first stride,
and 3" taller to the summit.
cool. i'll leave it, even though american code tells
me not to.
so everyone go outside in the rain and beat the f*#k out of your
front step. and when your partner or your neighbor inquires unto your
suspect behavior, jest tell them that wisdom is not static,
and must be pursued thru new intrigue.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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you are very flattering, kat.
my thoughts enjoy erratic flow.
i move them out best in the morning.
i don't apply a scientific or calculated
approach to my expressions.
all from the hip, sans organization.
when i log off supertopo,
i have to engage the uninspired
side of my mind,
in a calculated and critical method.
it kills me.
but death and life are hopelessly in love,
no matter how much i try to pry
them apart by interrupting their
monogamous relation.
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Norwegian, your comments make Supertopo a better place by far.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Feb 10, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
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Divorce is not a bad thing in itself. It's upsetting while it happens.
It's also freedom.
Most men I know who are unmarried again, look for a new wife.
Most women don't. They look for lovers or live-aparts or intimate close friends. Eating the cookie and still keeping it. Having someone and solitaryness at the same time.
Not sure why it is this way.
I can think of a couple reasons though.
The above doesn't apply to young people.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 12, 2014 - 02:29am PT
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Lollie, you know the reason is that men are weak, period.
BTW, I played chess with one of your compatriots online yesterday.
His 'handle' was surlykke. LOL!
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