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raymond phule
climber
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Jul 28, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
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The general discussion of retrobolting could be interesting but the slippery slope arguments that starts from retrobolting a route that might have had a FFA 25 years ago and that noone seemed to care about after that is not really that interesting.
It must be possibly to consider great and important climbs with bad protection and climbs that noone cares about in the current state differently.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 28, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
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So doing a little guidebook reading this morning, and it starts to make some sense:
The route was never finished being equipped. It was being developed as a sport route, and never had the top anchor placed. That's why it seemed like the belay was all jacked up and too far to the right, because the belay was actually the belay for the adjacent project, "Fallen From Grace" which was provisionally rated 12d and not finished at the time of the guidebook writing.
So there's your explanation for the seemingly screwed-up anchor placement, and stray bolts with 13ish climbing. Here's the relevant guidebook info-
From the 1998 Rock Climbing Boulder Canyon, Rossiter:
"Archangel. 12c. FA THom Byrne 1988, Fist pitch and anchors added by Richard Rossiter and Thom Byrne 1997. Enhanced SR.
"Climb an easy pitch with 3 bolts and belay on a ledge with a two-bolt anchor(9). Climb the awesome dihedral to where it fades into a blank wall and lower off from a two-bolt anchor (not in place at time of writing)"
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"Fallen From Grace. 12d (Project). TR: Bob Horan. This route ascends the roofs and dead vertical wall just right of Archangel. Incomplete at press time."
Add the info from Rossiter's 2005 "Classic Rock Climbs Upper Dream Canyon":
"...SR with 13 QDs".
And you end up with: the route was being established as a sport route, per Rossiter's notation, that would take 13 draws to lead, and they never finished equipping it (top anchor was never placed, as he noted). People mistook the FFG anchor for this one, beacause there was supposed to be an anchor up there, and that's all there was.
Sounds to me like Weidner basically finished these guys job for them, and equipped it the way the developers...Rossiter and Byrne, intended all along, but never got around to finishing.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 28, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
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No JLP, you're the ass.
I didn't condone his actions of bolting away without talking to Thom, merely thanked him for coming here.
And for your information, that was quite different than what he said on MP.
No need for any repeating, it's all there for him to read if he chooses.
Now go find some more bolters to worship, son.
After you finish learning to read.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 28, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
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When will the butthurtedness end? Think of the children.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 28, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
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So there's your explanation for the seemingly screwed-up anchor placement, and stray bolts with 13ish climbing.
I thought Chris said that he placed the "stray" bolts.
EDIT: Sounds like Richard Rossiter is a Person of Interest, if he climbed with Thom. Chris, did you contact Richard?
He's pretty easy to find:
http://www.boulderclimbs.com
I have his phone number and email if you need it.
Crusher
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 28, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
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FYI - TFB has replied on MP.com.
It appears the FFA was a highly rehearsed pinkpoint, including a few pitons for gear.
Sick send for the 80's, I'm sure, but not by today's standards.
I'm happy to see it bolted, especially under local consensus. It gives the 15 yr olds something to do while they wait in line for China Doll.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 28, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
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^^^ LOL! Realty's a bitch huh?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 28, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
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You saw and you took. You didn’t give a sh#t.
Well, Chris said he'd pull them if Thom was offended, let's see if he's a man of his word.
We don't call pitons reliable protection anymore
Of course not son. BWA HA HA HA hahahaaaa!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 28, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
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The vultures has some fresh meat (Chris) for a short time...this will blow over in a couple of weeks.
Many of my old routes that were done in the 80's have had bolted added. Doesn't bother me in the least, especially after I top-roped them before doing them as a lead.
Doing them ground up kinda levels the playing field, doing them top dowm like Thom did (?) is a little unfair to repeat ascents.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 28, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
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Awesome.
So this guy topropes the sh#t out of it, all summer, until it's brutally wired. Places, on rappell, a mix of pins and bolts, installing manufactured/synthetic runouts. Then after 100+ rehearsals, pinkpoints it.
And thereby creates, from a limited public resource, a route that ill serves that very public. No, not every route is for every climber. But once you've abandoned the ground-up adventure approach and are rapping in and adding fixed protection, then the route needs to be safe for onsight attempts, period. You are not a hero for creating runouts whilst hanging from a rappel line after months of rehearsal, you're a selfish jerk.
Ground up dangerous runouts? Sure. Even with a death-defying route virtually nobody will repeat, at least it's a testament to some climber having going up there and survived a hairy adventure.
But these FA guys created a botch-job. Nobody has the desire to spend all summer wiring a route enough to survive the artificial runnouts, just because a guy from '88 was running some clinical level OCD.
Good on Weidner for fixing this ego-centric botch-job.
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fluffy
Trad climber
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Jul 28, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
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so the guy climbed it in the style he wanted to. and as far as i can tell it was a bold effort that no one else the f*#k repeated. he hasn't complained about the retrobolting, at least publicly, yet to some him and his leading of this route was 'egocentric' and 'a botch job' worthy of nothing but derision and condemnation? and he's a 'selfish jerk'?
WTF ever give the guy a f*#king break
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 28, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
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He has responded and definately doesnt like the rebolting. Go to the link the OP posted, that would be page 1, first paragraph to some weird site called mountainproject.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 28, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
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For those who still don't get it, the route was unclimbable ground-up w/o aid gear. The pitons TB mentions he lowered off of, because he couldn't make it to the anchor he drilled on rappel, were missing. They are not in Rossiter's mid 90's guidebook, either. Nobody has freed to TB's bolted anchor - not CW, not TB.
Aid gear is great for aid climbers and curiosity pieces on ancient 5.11 and under routes. It doesn't work for modern routes people actually fall on, that may see 1000's of falls. Even if anyone gave a damn about this relic as TB climbed it, it would still need bolts to sustain today's traffic. That was obvious to everyone except a minority of morons with 10's of 1000's of posts to Supertopo.
The one and only grey area, IMO, is the quantity of bolts. Since we now know the route's history of TR'ing, 14 bolts in 115 feet sounds just about right.
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fluffy
Trad climber
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Jul 28, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
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Ok my bad thanks Patrick, interesting read. Although I still don't get why he's catching sh#t for his route/style.
Somebody go tell Alec Sharp his methods were invalid. Be sure and spray bolts all over his routes too, they're 'unsafe'.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 29, 2013 - 03:42am PT
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I think Chris and Thom should have a person-to-person dialogue and work out a solution. If Thom really wants Chris to removes his bolts then say so. If there is some sort of compromise then let them work out the details. The two protagonists are the only ones who can really resolve this situation.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jul 29, 2013 - 04:19am PT
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^^^^^ good idea!
Seems only fair that JLP should be invited to that meeting as well seeing as he has been deeply affected here.
I also elect DMT, Bob D & goatboy to go & represent supertopo.
Consensus must be found- Before this gets ridiculous.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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Jul 29, 2013 - 09:15am PT
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Looks like Bobby D and Blah each need to pony up $100.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 29, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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^ ^ ^
I don't think so, take a look at
what I wrote earlier:
If Mr. Byrne shows up and plausibly claims to have freed it (and if he was anything like a good enough climber to make that a plausible claim), I will gladly make the $100 donation to his favorite 501(c)(3) or charity recipient. (With one exception--Rossiter's guide shows at least one piton; if it was done with pitons that were replaced with bolts, that seems like a public service that no one would complain about.)
and what Byrne wrote on MP:
Regarding my pins? What happened to them? I loved the LA at the top! I fell on it many times and lowered off it using the ¾’ angle below as a backup. You can see it in the pic I’ve posted and I will dig out some better pics. I can’t believe that the same frost wedging over the past 25 years that caused the formation of the “loose blocks” that you cleaned also caused those pins to fall out. It’s possible that someone else removed them, but I can’t imagine why.
Moreover, it's not exactly clear that TB ever made it to where the anchors are now--it sort of sounds like he toproped it from different anchors, but only made it to a piton he had at the top of a crack below the anchors (that isn't totally clear, and I'm basing this on a JLP comment on MP, it's really not clear what to make of this).
Nevertheless, if TB posts up saying that he'd like the $100 sent to whatever charity he chooses, I'll send a check. (TB, if you read this and want the $100 sent, please post on this site or on the comments to MP, I don't check email sent to the email associated with my account here).
Aside from the $100, seems that TB was doing a Christian Griffith light in trying to replicate something like Paris Girl (extensive toprope rehearsal followed by leading on rap bolted gear that is inadequate for almost anyone else to lead who hasn't also extensively TR'd the line). Not really a style that has stood the test of time!
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JMC
climber
the land of milk and honey
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Jul 29, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
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Hey, Elcapinyoazz, in the guidebook description you excerpted,
"Archangel. 12c. FA THom Byrne 1988, Fist pitch and anchors added by Richard Rossiter and Thom Byrne 1997. Enhanced SR. , does enhanced mean what it usually does? All this dick wrenching is over a chiseled route?
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Jul 29, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
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Reading Tom Byrne's account of the first ascent, I can really relate to the part about how this route is connected in time to the death of a friend. I've never done many first ascents, but one that I did in Eldo was found after much time wandering around Eldo while mourning the death of a close friend. I wasn't looking for a new route, but rather trying to come to terms with one of the most heart-breaking times in my life, in a canyon I have always revered. I found great comfort just from being in Eldo at that time, even though not much climbing was done.
When Crusher wrote his guidebook, I went to Eldo with him one evening to sell the route as an independent line from other routes. He was skeptical. I suppose I wanted my name for the route, More Nerve Than Verve, immortalized in a guidebook but more importantly I think my efforts were rooted in my desire to preserve the memories of that difficult time in my own life in some tangible way.
While we may never agree on style in climbing routes, all of you young bucks looking to immortalize your own present efforts would do well to remember that 25 years from now, you will be watching the new generation of the time changing many of the values you hold dear. That is the nature of things. I have no investment in regards to this route in Dream Canyon, but it seems to me the route could have been altered in a more respectful way than it was done by CW. There was a substantial investment of emotional energy by the first ascentionist, and this fact seems to have been ignored. There is also significant history involved, as it sounds as if the accepted name of the wall, Lost Angel, is wrapped up in this first ascent.
If history is important to us, it seems that Tom's story of his first ascent (on what was at the time a large, unexplored crag that has become popular) is far more compelling than that of a 5.14 climber "putting up" a .12c a quarter of a century later.
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